Overfilled Differential

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Overfilled Differential
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Perigo - Linton, IN on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 06:09 pm:

My T has had an oil leak at both axles for some time. I installed modern seals, but it kept on leaking. Because I eventually want to get AC brakes, I have to stop it. I had one heck of a time removing the differential plug, and when I did relativity thin oil gushed out - way too much and way too thin. The chassis was rebuilt several years ago by an A guy who should have known better. Now I need to flush the housing and put in 600W. Should I flush with kerosene and suck it out. Then I should put in how much 600 W? I have 3 quarts of 600W for some reason. I know it doesn't take much.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 06:49 pm:

Is it the '24 hack in your profile?
It should have the fill plug down by the bottom third, so you could fill it up to the hole. It's very likely you have a leak from the engine over the u-joint and down the driveshaft tube, so the original restorer may well have filled with correct oil, but maybe he didn't fix the sealing from the transmission output shaft in the engine?

If the plug inside the driving plate's shaft isn't there you have a problem sealing without teardown of the engine :-(

If it's a worn fourth main you may be able to change to a rebabbitted bearing without full teardown.. But first fill the u-joint cavity full with grease and keep it full - maybe it slows down the leak so much that you can use it until other service items makes a teardown necessary.

The rear axle may leak less with neoprene seals on the inside of the outer Hyatts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Kelly Montana on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 07:02 pm:

I just had a similar leak on one side only. I ordered 600w from a big supplier and they sent a much lighter oil saying 600w was replaced by the oil they sent me. It was like 140w. I got some 600w from Antique Auto Ranch and will change it in a few days. Maybe your A guy ran into the same supplier. PK


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Perigo - Linton, IN on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 07:03 pm:

Karl,

Yes it's the hack in the profile. I never thought about the plug, but it makes sense because the oil that came out reminded me of engine oil in smell and consistency. Not sure which path I'll take at this point.I don't want to pull the engine until late fall. I'll try the other fixed first.

Thanks,
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 07:04 pm:

"Way too thin" is the big clue. Odds are, the oil is coming from the motor into the rear end. It could indicate that you are putting too much oil in your engine. But chances are very good that there is a missing or damaged little piece in the planetary transmission output ("driven") plate. There is supposed to be a small plate (like a soft plug) inside the output shaft just forward of where the U-joint is inserted. If that plug is missing, the engine will have some tendency to pump oil from inside the transmission out through that output shaft, through the U-joint ball, and down the torque tube to the rear end. If there is not a lot of grease in the U-joint ball, often most of the oil will just leak out the ball a make a mess on the driveway. If you grease the U-joint really well, sometimes they will leak very little and the oil all winds up in the rear end then on out.

If the little plate/plug is bad or missing? There may be some ways to do "a repair" without pulling the engine (pull the rear end instead).

How much oil are you putting in the engine?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Perigo - Linton, IN on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 07:05 pm:

Pat,

I'm going to try to limp along for a while using Karl's suggestions. I will use the 600 W I have on hand.

Thanks,
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Perigo - Linton, IN on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 07:52 pm:

Wayne,

I probably do carry too much oil - even or slightly above the top pet cock. I do keep a lot of grease in the u-joint housing. How do I replace or fix the situation by pulling the rear end and not the engine? I know the plug you're talking about.

Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam, Bluffton, Ohio on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 08:49 pm:

If you are missing the plug in the driven plate you have to pull the engine to fix it. You have to remove the driven plate from the transmission which cannot be done by just removing the rear end assembly. It will not clear the transmission main shaft when all 6 bolts are removed as it must be slid back. The crankcase has to be separated from the block to get clearance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 08:58 pm:

If the plug in the driving plate's shaft is missing, there will still be a pin through the axle that keeps the clutch spring in place. Maybe something that seals can be placed in the shaft between the clutch pin and the u-joint that enters the square hole in the shaft..

Noone likes stuff like loose silicone globs in the engine, so maybe a sealing can be made out of a piece of oil resistant rubber that is just a little oversized and can be driven into the shaft with the u-joint out of the way.

Taking down the rear axle to get the u-joint out of the way is a great opportunity to split it and check if it has bronze thrust washers.. Original lead babbitt thrusts may break anytime leaving you almost without the transmission brake.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 09:00 pm:

How's the motor oil ever have to add any might be internal leak going down the tube filling the rear


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, July 27, 2015 - 09:18 pm:

Adding the inner seals will help keep the rear lube from leaking past the outer seal on the rear axle. Also, once you have installed the seals DO NOT over grease the outer bearings. The grease will just work past the outer axle seals an make a mess.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 01:48 am:

First, the disclaimer.
For a long time, I have been against using any sort of silicon based sealants on engines. The silicon has a reaction with motor oil (especially hot motor oil) that generally makes it unreliable as a motor sealant. People keep telling this "new stuff" works where everything else has failed, and a couple years later, it turns out the new one doesn't quite work either.
That is just me.

One exception I would consider (but have not actually tried), would be to slow the oil pumping through that output shaft by pumping some silicon type (a better one at least) into the U-joint hole. Like I say, I would consider it. Theoretically, in such a confined space, the silicon couldn't really get out and cause trouble elsewhere (transmission shaft toward the front, U-joint toward the rear). You wouldn't be able to adequately clean the area, so the silicon would not stick well, and you would have to guess at how much to pump in before putting the U-joint back in. All you could really hope for would be to slow the leak down.
One patch I did do with an assembled engine after I looked in the U-joint and saw the plug missing. I hand cut and ground an oval shaped flat plate that just barely squeezed diagonally down the U-joint hole on its narrowest edge, and was only slightly wider the longer direction (that made it slightly larger in area than the U-joint hole). I used a spray bottle of lacquer thinner to rinse the oil inside out as best it would, then I allowed to dry for a full day. I used a wooden stick to trowel Permatex number 2 inside the U-joint hole to just beyond the end of the hole (where the plug was supposed to be). I frosted the oval plug like a cake, squeezed the plug into the U-joint hole, and then used a hammer and punch to force the plug the rest of the way back. Yes, it hit the end of the transmission shaft. I had to force the plug the rest of the way in, and yes it bent the piece into place. All I could do from that point was hope the Permatex number 2 did its stuff.
Also, yes, I had to remove the pin from the clutch spring, and then yes, I had to put it back. It may be interesting to note that there is another current thread where one of our foreign friends discovered that pin missing in the T he recently got. I mentioned on that thread that putting in that pin in an assembled engine is tricky. Now you know why I know that it is tricky.
By the way. After so many years and a fair number of model Ts? I don't remember which car that was??? But I do not recall it ever leaking much either.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Perigo - Linton, IN on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 05:46 pm:

Okay, here's what I plan to do. Fill the universal housing with grease.....all the way up. Then, I will drill a hole in the torque tube about a foot from the universal joint, so the any oil that gets in there will drip out on the floor or road. Who will notice the drips???

Then, I am looking for a rebuilt ruckstell axle which hopefully will solve the program. In the meanwhile I can keep on touring:-)

Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donald Manlove on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 08:22 pm:

Mike
If you have to pull the engine let me know and I will come give you a hand.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 08:26 pm:

You may as well drill it at the other end, the oil will just run down the bottom the torque tube and drip off the pumpkin anyway. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 11:32 pm:

Drill the hole to fit a flip top oiler like on the front end


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, July 28, 2015 - 11:35 pm:

Good idea, it would allow the oil to come out and keep the road grime out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Perigo - Linton, IN on Wednesday, July 29, 2015 - 04:46 pm:

Seemed drastic until I realized that when I fixed the problem the right way, I could always weld the hole shut. You'd never know!

Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, July 29, 2015 - 11:21 pm:

I am not sure how he did it, but Ross Lilleker replaced the clutch disks on a 1916 without dropping the pan. He separated the powerplant from the rear axle and pulled it forward to gain access.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Thursday, July 30, 2015 - 12:00 am:

Yes Ted, the clutch discs can be replaced with the engine still in the car, I have done so. It IS a bit of work and requires some diligence, but it does save the time of pulling the engine if all you really need to do is replaced the clutch discs. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Thursday, July 30, 2015 - 10:55 am:

If you're running a transmission screen, you're better off w/the oil hole of the 4th main on the side, rather than on top.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthonie Boer---- Klaaswaal NL on Thursday, July 30, 2015 - 11:02 am:

Bill H ; Can you put some pictures on the Forum about replacing the clutch plates IN the Engine ?
Do's it make a difference or you have a three or four dip oil pan ??
Toon


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