We all know that the TT's gearing, even the hi-speed optional gearing, makes them unable to keep up with a T most of the time. Cannot say too much, but I've been informed by the "Powers That Be" that a soon to be available product will go a long way to addressing this. So don't put your TT up for sale, or swap TT rear end for one from a T, or look for solace in a bottle of Jack just yet!
(Message edited by m2m on August 05, 2015)
But Constantine, if it goes fast is it really a TT?
Constantine - How soon? 1 month? 6 months? A year?
Could you please let us TT owners know your best guess?
Whatever it is, we anxiously awaiting.....
How about a Layne Warford?
Royce, hi speed gearing is 5:1, even with the KC Warford in o/d you're still geared too low to take on a T.
(Message edited by m2m on August 05, 2015)
In do just fine in my TT truck touring with the club. I'm not the first one at the lunch stop, but I'm not late either. It has an iron Warford, Ruckstell with high speed gears, and Reeder flathead. It also has an A crank, but that doesn't make it any faster. Stock cam, intake and exhaust. I usually take my 26 touring these days because it seats more people. Everyone asks where is the dump truck.
It will be interesting to see what is in the works. The only way to make a TT faster is to change the final drive ratio or turn the engine faster. You will get to a point where the T engine just doesn't have the power to move a vehicle that heavy and with that profile at higher speeds. You had better improve the stopping abilities as well. Sure, I could put another overdrive in my truck, but I would need to put a bunch more nuts under its rusty hood. At some point a truck is still a truck.
Erik, Completely agree with you; but I'll take your point a step further.
I believe a truck is still a truck if it overtakes a T roadster and the female passenger in the roadster says to the driver:
"Honey, was that a TT dump truck that just passed us?"
Keith, I would guess that before the end of the year is very likely.
A game changer is coming...hold on to your wood framed windshields.
Anything (read ANYTHING) you have a girl in, better be the slowest old clunker in town. No need to get to the dance early nor her house early!
Well, whatever it is that's coming it'll be interesting to compare it to the speed increasing options now available, both in terms of performance and in terms of cost. With current stuff, if you add a Muncie and a Longbien, both with over drives, and high speed rear end gears you can get a TT going much faster than I'd care to go in one, and that's with a stock engine.
Now you have me curious.....
The TT I had many years ago had a 5 to 1 rear end plus a Universal (brand name) TT specific over-drive that was a little bit higher geared than most over-drives. I was clocked a few times at just under 40 mph, it would do that or slightly better all day long. The engine was very stock. But I think top speeds were better in those days because the gasoline was better (better mpg and performance).
I would like to have another TT someday. I don't know if I can ever make that happen or not.
I will be interested to what is coming up!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
I have in fact passed up a few T's but could not hear what was being said as I left them. My favorite time was when I had the dump truck at the centennial T party in 2008. There was a real nice looking C-cab truck there and I saw it at the airplane show. Leaving the show, I spotted the TT making its way up a long hill out of town. When there was a passing lane, I gave it some throttle and went around, shifting the Warford into overdrive as I was even with him. The timing was perfect and I left him like a bad habit. The dirty look was priceless. One of my favorite memories of a great week. Some time later the C-cab was deservedly featured on the cover of the national magazine. Beautiful truck.
T trucks will move right along when built to do it. As with anything else, speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?
Erik - I'll bet that the TT C Cab you passed at the Centennial was owned by Mark Williams, now a past President of the MTFCI. His TT is very nice and was featured on the cover of The Model T Times July - August, 2008 issue.
Sometimes memories are really great!
Back 5 years or so when the New set of TT gears was first made my thought was then why didn't the computer CAD make them in like 4.11, those with out a aux trans would make drive-abliy very good. My TT project will use a Chicago and a TT Rux with 5.1 gears and over side 20" tires and will roll around town with no traffic problems.
Seems to me that 5-1 if it was connected to .78 or so OD ( which would net out at about 3.9-1) would be OK
After all in a relatively heavy vehicle like a TT ,even if you were pulling 40 HP, you would want at least 4 speeds and 5 or 6 could be handy in hills. If you had 50-60 HP you will also be capable of running in the 3000 + rpm range
So a BW 5 speed in the torque tube would be fairly easy answer. It would look like a stock T with a auxiliary transmission inside the cab
You would have a total of 10 gears available ( but just like my 13 speed Road Ranger you wouldn't use them all all the time)
Just my thoughts
Yes, that was the one. Every detail of Mark's TT restoration was superb. It just didn't have all the non-stock parts that make ol' dumpy scoot.
As for the gears, might there be limitations as to how much you can change the ratio given the distance between the ring and worm gears? A TT with anything faster than the stock high speed gears would really benefit from a Ruckstell or other auxiliary transmission underdrive.
You got to find a happy middle ground between low and top end
I went looked at a TT that had two aux tannins one was a Tiger mounted at the rear end and I think a warford
I never drove it as we could not get it to fire and it sold befor I got back for a second chance
I remember the guy said the rear mount tranny was direct under he put in backwards to give more top end
Why the big secret?
I kind of agree Kevin. Speculation posts just create unnecessary drama. If you can't tell us what it is, then just wait until it is made available, then tell us--whatever it is.
Gee guys, I'm happy with my stock 7.25:1. The slow speed is part of the charm. The way it was made. Guess I'll go crawl back under my rock now.
There's no speculation, this product is walking up the driveway to ring the door bell. I've been just informed by the "Powers That Be", quote: "We are just now getting ready to start advertising...".
And no, I cannot tell you what it is because I haven't been authorised to. So why not wait to tell until available? I said why at the very top; here's an example of it:
Erik, well done in the KO of a former MTFCI President, which you described as a "highlight" and "One of my favorite memories..." heh,heh, heh! That's a nice scalp to have.
Speed is like money. Even if you don't really need it, if you have the chance to get some you take it...you could always not use it or give it away like Bill Gates.
Hal, nothing wrong with 7.25:1 ; a must have if you've got a one or two ton Weaver at the back, or if you're hauling dozens of cement bags, or do some logging, etc. I think with this soon to be released product you CAN have your cake and eat it. For 7.25 guys like you and others who have specific needs, custom made units will be available.
Constantine, I get it, your excited for a new product, that you got wind of, that may help others a lot. That sounds interesting, But really this post isn't helping anyone at this point. It's like the kid in the school yard telling everyone he has a secret he can't tell anyone. We are after all just grown up kids.
I would have been more on board with a post that said something to the fact of "hey, has anyone seen this new product that just got released?"
See where I am going with this. It is just frustrating the rest (or some) of us at this point. I do look forward though when you can show pics with a big red bow on it though. Until then......
Tell me something...is someone printing out this thread every time there's a new post then putting it in your letterbox...a sort of hard-copy spam? If so, it's certainly not me as I'm not even in the USA. If that was happening I could understand why you're getting upset.
Apart from that you're wrong...sorry, but you are.
This post very well may be of importance to people who were thinking of selling their TT or ripping out the worm drive rear end and replacing it with one from a T. And I'm not in fantasy land in saying that, those discussions are not uncommon on this forum...guys do really sell or trade their TTs only because they consider them too slow.
That being the case I think it was the right decision to mention an upcoming product despite the fact I cannot give any details at this point. And I have no doubt this product is coming...there's no "maybe" here.
This is a public forum, sorry if you don't like this thread or me but you cannot dictate to other people what they should say or think especially when they're on-topic and in no way offensive to anybody.
Change of topic but still TT...
Have a look at this TT, what aux. trans is that? Is the body a copy of a specific brand? See:
The "Powers That Be", in their infinite wisdom, have graciously released some more details :
TT with 7.25:1 will have 5.58 in o/d
TT with 5.17:1 will have 3.92 in o/d
I will pass on details as they come in.
Above Les wrote:
"Seems to me that 5-1 if it was connected to .78 or so OD ( which would net out at about 3.9-1) would be OK"
This product pretty much is on the ball with this way of thinking.
As I said above, the option of having a unit with custom gearing to suit your needs does exist; but will add to cost I'd imagine.
Oh, and by the way I have no connection to the maker is this product or do not profit in it's sale in any way...unfortunately.
(Message edited by m2m on August 07, 2015)
The figures in the table below are based on using tyres that are 33" tall. If this is incorrect let me know and I'll pass it on. I believe TT used various rear tyre sizes over the years.
(Message edited by m2m on August 07, 2015)
(Message edited by m2m on August 07, 2015)
TT with 5.17:1 will have 3.98 in o/d. NOT 3.92 as stated above. Sorry. See below:
That TT in the Hemmings link looks like a Warford accessory trans, as per the shifter ball at the floorboard. They were made in different gearing for TT's Added today, most would be overdrive versions. Some came with power takeoffs too.
As for that body, its a modern reconstruction of typical idea of a commercially available truck cab, but doesn't look like a 'real' one. Very nice, but the builder's idea of what he wanted in a TT cab. Nice wood work. But certainly not a period piece copy.
As for that 'new product'?
Let's open the gates with ideas.....my guess for the coming new thing is a new KC Warford alum transmission, with special gearing inside to couple with the TT worm gears to get along fast on the flats!
Dan T, Interesting thought?! Maybe they could make a double over brownie (D-O-OO)?
Whatever, I don't mind a little speculation, teasing, and idea tossing. Good things could come from that regardless of what is sneaking up the driveway.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Dan, notice in the Hemmings ad the Dealer made no mention of the Warford and the ad says "The transmission has two forward gears and a reverse gear...". The truck is called a "T Pickup" and never a "TT". If anyone is in St. Louis, Missouri go tell this guy to stick to selling Mustangs and not use Wikipedia so much. Don't know but I think this TT would look better painted...maybe forest green.
About the item in question...because the all-knowing but merciless "Powers That Be" are probably following this discussion; I will neither confirm or deny any speculation on who, or who isn't behind the project.
Anyway, they are not yet available...so they don't want TT guys ringing day and night begging, grovelling and crying over the phone trying to get one...plus I'm first on the list anyway.
There are a number of players who could put into production an item like this. Layne certainly would appear to be an odds on favourite being they have already produced two variants of well received Warford...the "Standard" and the "H1". Question is, are they now working on a third "TT" variant? Or is maybe someone else bringing back the Muncie, or the Mohawk or even perhaps the famous Jumbo Giant?
We're living in historic times.
(Message edited by m2m on August 07, 2015)
I know it would be cheaper and it takes power to run through gears but could you get where you wanted by jumping up to a 8.25x20?? The truck rack might need to be raised a little but?? Bud in Wheeler,Mi.
Problem with the "poor man's overdrive" option (fitting large tyres) is those tyres are heavy and it's a TT not a 1950's truck!
I like the Samson 8.25x20 Mud&Snow Bias, nice tough guy name, 39.1" OD, but they're 71 Ibs heavy! There's also a 10x20 if you're "man" enough.
Your right,i'm not man enough now but about 45 years ago i had a doodlebug with 1400 x20's on it! My first bug had 10.00 x 20's with no tubes and chains through the rims to make the tires turn! I have seen Bug's with TT rear ends and 10.00 x20's on Dayton rims that worked very well.Bud in Wheeler,Mi.
I thought there was only one version of the Layne Warford. What is the difference between a "standard" and "H1" model? First I've heard of it.
It'll be interesting how much this "game changer" will cost. A Layne Warford lists from Lang's for $3445.00 plus freight. You've got to have money to burn to justify that expense. I think I'll just stick with my original Warford.
Bud, they sounds great, if you have any pics post them so we can see.
Terry, I think you can buy the Layne Warford at a much cheaper price if you shop around.
Mark, the difference between the two is only in under-drive. The "H1" gives you 5.72 under-drive gearing, similar to that of the Ruckstell. The "standard" gives a lower 6.67 under drive. Those numbers are using standard Ford rear of course.
Layne Warford $2800 plus $65 shipping:
The Layne code "H1" I would guess stands for "Higher 1st gear" (underdrive). I would also guess they they decided on this variant due to customer feedback...for most Ts, especially speedsters and roadsters, a 6.67 would too low. The 6.67 is the way to go IMHO for towing, pickups. off-road or extreme conditions.
Royce, have you never owned or considered a TT?
No I am too busy with all the regular ones.
I have seen a TT going 50 MPH on the interstate highway (in the right lane) with a regular Model T on the bed. It had the air conditioner running too. I believe it belonged to one of the Cordes boys. Quite impressive, turbocharged too.
I think the first Layne Warfords had the same deep underdrive ratio as the originals. Problem is, everyone else has a Ruckstell, and you are geared differently so you are either holding them up on hills or they are doing the same to you. Now the Layne is available with an underdrive comparable to the Ruckstell.
I will say again that the only way to make a TT move faster is to ramp up the final drive ratio or turn the engine faster. Either one requires more power. Royce's post is a case in point. The truck he refers to has an overhead conversion and I'm sure other speed goodies. I don't recall the turbo but it does have air conditioning.
Although I can see the advantages of speeding up our TTs some, I'm not a big fan of getting them to do 50+ MPH. I believe they're just not designed for it and to make them go that fast comes with some risk. Aside from the brakes, steering and suspension issues, I've often wondered how fast you can spin a TT worm drive rear end before it comes apart.
My truck will do 50 but it isn't that much fun. Much happier at 35-40
Sometime I would like to be a "power that be".
I think what would be interesting is a TT 4x4!!
There have been a couple of threads in the past that showed a Model T 4 wheel drive set-up. I'm sure no expert, but my recollection of what I saw is a kit that intercepts the drive train at the planetary output and powers a front axle while still powering the drive shaft/rear axle. Others n this forum will know better than I, but I don't see why it wouldn't work on a TT the same as a regular T. The only obstacle I can think of is difficulty getting the front axle ratio, which is set up for a regular T, to match a TT rear end.
Les, I agree, especially if we are talking worm drive for the front axle!
That raises an interesting question...could you have a TT fitted say with a Warford, the normal TT worm drive rear and the Livingwood T front axle? With the Livingwood 4x4 kit you could have it in 2WD so on-road that would not be a problem. In 4x4 though this set-up would mean the front and rear axles are geared very differently...would that work?
The worm drive low gearing, stronger chassis and the fatter tyres a TT can be fitted with, make it in many ways a better off-road vehicle than a T.
4x4 TT sounds good to me! And perhaps a good way to test your "manhood" like these Russians seem to be doing in an old Soviet GAZ-66 4x4 truck:
Henry, we had the same idea/question but you were faster!
I'm a bit tired, but I'm thinking a gear ratio change in the transfer case might get you where you need to be..
So, if you fit your TT with a Ruckstell, a Muncie, a Longbien, and a Livingwood 4X4 set-up, how many shifters would you need?
Dustin, Welcome to the forum. Of course! Why didn't I think of that...the way to overcome the difference in gearing between the front and rear axles is by adjusting the transfer case gearing. I don't think you'd need them to have exactly the same gearing as you get a lot of wheel spinning off-road. On-road you'd use 2WD.
If I understand correctly, your all excited about a non-period correct, hidden accessory that greatly enhances driveability?
To win the TT Division at the Montana 500 will force drivers to seek out
gear combinations like this. With a scaled ton load requirement, speed is
all about gears and an engine to push them.
Not all, Mike.
Noted Hal, my post was directed to the original post. I acknowledge your consistent and steadfast appreciation for originality to the fullest extent practical.
I see a Model TT Power Wagon in the makes.
May as well make it as a 6x6 tandem. Then you can really get stuck in the mud!!!
I guess we can end the speculation. This will be a new ratio available for the KC Warford. Works out to about 30% overdrive out of the gearbox.
We are working on new ads to run right now.
Price will be $2800 just like our other ratio's.
We have a few boxes ready to assemble, and we are waiting on gears to finish them up.
If you are wanting a TT gear set call/email and let us know.
I will try and keep my eye on the forums answering any questions I can.
Is it really a good idea to have that worm drive spinning that fast for very long? Mine whines some at it's top speed of about 18mph.
Also, are the folks using this upgrading anything on the brakes?
That's what I was trying to say about the rear end. It has always been my impression that the only reason Henry (the other one) got away with using a worm drive in the TTs was the slow speed. If Ford had designed a truck with higher speed capability, he would have needed to use a different rear end. So, I question the wisdom of souping up a TT for 50+ MPH and doing it using the worm drive.
Brakes are another whole conversation....
We haven't had any reported issues with the worm gears. Granted I would suspect anything being turned significantly faster will result in added wear.
With any worm gear lubrication is always a big deal.
As for brakes. I wouldn't recommend any Model T actually running on the stock brake. Especially with something that could possible get into a neutral position. Though the whole purpose behind the original KC Warford was making it possible to jam into gear if one did get away from you.
I'll be honest that this option isn't going to be for everyone. It all depends on what you want to do with your truck or car.
Think if I wanted more speed what I do is add a chain drive and have it gearing up this would get you more top end and not turn the worm and ring any faster
I don't think the purpose of the new KC Warford "TT" variant is to break the land speed record or to win the Montana 500.
It will though allow a TT with a 5.17 rear to drive at T speeds (30-40mph), without screaming it's brains out and stressing the engine.
For a TT with a 7.25 rear, it will not make it go fast! It may, with the extra 10mph, perhaps encourage some people to use their TTs more often on public roads.
Don't forget, the stump-pulling gearing you get in under-drive. So if you like slow you will not be disappointed. Perfect for hauling a heavy load of cement bags or for rescuing a F-150 stuck in a ditch, driving down very steep mountain roads, etc.
Like the Ruckstell, you can leave the Warford in direct...you don't use it if you don't need it.
I think it's a game changer, or at least a welcome option for neglected TT fans.
Until now, I never would have considered buying a TT...that's changed.
Now if someone would develop non-slip (posi-traction) kits for the TT rear end and the Livingwood front axle we could get some true 4X4 action going here, a full 20 HP worth!
I have Bailey locking differential kits for the regular T. I doubt they will work in the TT though
The snow mobile TT guys add some friction plates in the differential to add some limited slip action already. Oh and some of us already have this new warford and were involved in its development.
Jeff, Since you have one, could you please tell us how you like it. There's nothing like a user report...
How fast will an AA go? It has a worm drive rear doesn't it? Also has a 40 HP engine but there was a question about fast worms
The gear ratio's we came up with were actually Jeff's suggestion.
If anyone knows how well the rear ends are going to hold up its him.
The 403 Peugeot sedans had brass worm gear rear ends and I worked at a dealer in those days, owned two of the cars myself, and never heard of one going bad.
Those cars would easily do 70MPH, well not easily, but they would do it.
I may be wrong, but I'm thinking all but the earliest AA'a were ring and pinion.
Hopefully they will supply repro torque tubes so all you guys won't be cutting up 90 year old torque tubes.
I'd love to make new torque tubes, but its just not a very feasible thing to do.
Lengthening the frame is easier to change back (if someone should wish to) and you'll get even more loading space - you may carry another T along as a spare car (but then you won't be able to use the overdrive as much..)
(Message edited by Roger K on August 12, 2015)
This not the first time anyone has put an overdrive, or even multiple overdrives, on a TT. I have never heard of wear issues with the worm drive operating at higher speeds by doing so.
A TT rear end in good condition and properly lubricated will handle anything a model T engine can give it regardless of ratio.
This is great that there is so much interest in TTs and performance. My focus has moved to TTs and I am excited to see what evolves.
I will be setting a land speed record with mine.