Another fan belt rubbing timer...

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Another fan belt rubbing timer...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo on Wednesday, August 05, 2015 - 10:34 pm:

My 1914 Touring car fan belt is hitting the timer in the advanced position. I read through a lot of threads and it sounds like I am far from the first person to have this issue.

I have read through several threads and this is what I have done so far:

I confirmed the upper pulley is 1.75" in diameter (actually 1.65, but I guess it is a little worn)

I confirmed the lower pulley is 3" in diameter

I confirmed / changed the belt to a 23" belt

I adjusted the belt pretty loose.

The fan belt adjuster is steel or iron and has a kink in it near the end. I believe this to be correct for '14.

I added a washer in-between the pivot bolt on the fan adjuster and the engine spacing the top of the belt out slightly. I tried adding two washers, but then my 4 blade fan rubbed the acetylene light crossover tube mounted to the radiator.

The timer is one of the unreliable "S" repro new day timers. I was getting an occasional miss, so I took the cover off and found a piece of brass sitting in the bottom, and the contacts were all black. I cleaned it all up and noticed it smokes when passing current. I have a new TW timer on order I should see next week.

I don't want to wear a line in my new timer. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
-Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Wednesday, August 05, 2015 - 11:07 pm:

Is the fan belt leather? If so, leather tends to stretch. The exception may be a leather belt that is sewn along the edge.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, August 06, 2015 - 12:34 am:

I have one washer behind the fan bracket on my 1915. That still leaves 5/8"clearance between the fan and the light tube, so I could get away with adding another washer or two if I needed more.




That one washer gives me about 3/32" clearance between the belt and the New Day.

I'm wondering why your radiator is so close to the fan, or the fan is so close to the radiator. I would think you should have enough space there to allow another washer behind the fan bracket.


You're right, this is not a new problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, August 06, 2015 - 09:18 am:

I think your belt is too long. You will notice that as you tighten the belt the bracket moves the belt closer to the timer. A shorter belt would be tight with the bracket farther from the timer.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, August 06, 2015 - 09:55 am:

I don't know if Joe's 1914 is like my 1915 in this regard, but there's a limit to how low the bracket can go before the fan starts hitting things. I just looked at four other engines, and on all of them the belt is in front of the timer's left side. A New Day stands out in front by about 1/16" more than a Ford timer, but the belt should still be far enough forward to clear it. The engines I checked (1923, 1923, 1924, 1926) all had more clearance than my 1915, some more than 1/4". I suspect that the belt will be in front of the timer's left side on just about any Model T. Maybe some of the folks with 1914 and earlier cars can tell us if that's right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Thursday, August 06, 2015 - 10:13 am:

I would try another fan belt. That one is too wide.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, August 06, 2015 - 10:31 am:

The fan belt is too long. Period.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Thursday, August 06, 2015 - 02:44 pm:

I've found that the belt length can make all the difference. Just 3/4 to 1" or so can make the difference.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Thursday, August 06, 2015 - 03:07 pm:

If I were at home I would post a picture of what we did.
The 19 motor did not have a problem but the 26 motor had significance interference between the belt and timer.
Out of desperation my son went to the parts store and came back with a narrow ribbed belt. Maybe 1/2 to 3/4 inches wide.
I figured that it would never stay on but to my surprise if works great!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo on Friday, August 07, 2015 - 08:26 pm:

I tried three different belts. All were 23". The one the car came with, one that was under the seat that also came with the car and one that I bought from Langs. None of them solved the problem. I could try a shorter belt still, but the T parts places don't sell something shorter than 23". A narrow belt would work, but I was trying to keep the original look and was staying away from rubber.

Spacing the arm out with 2 washers clears the timer, but the fan hits the metal tube that runs across the bottom of the radiator with 2 washers.

The fan has more clearance at the top of the rad, but is tighter at the bottom. I am not sure if my rad is tilted or my fan bracket has a slight bend in it. I considered trying to bend the arm a little to change the angle of the fan, but that seems like a recipe for problems...

I took the fan and bracket off the car and took it all apart. I noticed there is maybe 1/16" to 1/8" of axial play on fan pulley relative the the shaft. This allows the fan itself to move back and forth slightly. Is that normal?

Should I try another arm? Everything I have read says the repos are not very good...

-Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo on Saturday, August 08, 2015 - 06:26 am:

a bit more archive reading and I found reference to a felt washer (p/n 3982) and cap (p/n 3982) that would take up the axial play. I looked and Langs lists them as for use on 1920+. Are they compatible with a 1914, or did a '14 use something different? I will probably pick them up next time I place an order anyway and see if they fit.

https://www.modeltford.com/item/3982.aspx

-Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Saturday, August 08, 2015 - 11:05 am:

Those parts listed above are for the aluminum pulley fans. Why don't you just screw the fan shaft in toward the bracket further?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo on Saturday, August 08, 2015 - 12:47 pm:

There is a shoulder on the bolt that prevents screwing it in any further.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, August 08, 2015 - 01:44 pm:

Joe, please post some pics of your current setup, maybe some of the experts will spot something amiss.

Here is an easy way to resize pics to get the file size under the 250K forum limit:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/541631.html?1431838921

:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, August 08, 2015 - 01:52 pm:

If there is a problem with the repo short arm (he he) I have not seen or heard anything. I installed one on a customers car and would like to be forewarned if there will be a problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 12:55 am:

Let's see if I figured out how to load pictures...

Belt with the "S" repo new day timer. My TW timer came today and I put it in this evening, but did not take pics. The TW is slightly better, but it still rubs.








Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 12:56 am:

This is how close the fan gets to the acetylene crossover pipe with 1 washer behind the arm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 01:02 am:

When I took my repo timer off there were some brass bits inside the cover. When I pulled it all the way off I found this brass plate that was kinda chewed up in-between the engine and the timer arm. I did not put it back in as it seemed to be adding little brass bits inside the timer which did not seem like a good idea. Do I need to get a new one? It looks kinda like it is an oil splash shield.



I also noticed a little engine oil on the end of the camshaft. The TW timer had 2 warning not to lubricate it. Do I need to fix the small oil leak? I could not see a seal, Do I have to take the cam cover off to get at the seal?

Thanks,
-Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 01:20 am:

Two observations Joe. I am not familiar with flat fan belts which fill the flat on the pulley like yours does. A wider belt will run closer to the timer.
Secondly, if you have the correct timing cover for a 1914 motor, you will have to remove the front cover to replace the seal. On later covers, a modern seal can be installed without removing the cover.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 08:10 am:

Allan, thanks for the tip. I did not measure the belt width, from what I read it is supposed to be 1 1-1/4". I have 4 different belts. I will see if any of them are more narrow.

I must have the correct front cover as there is no access to where a seal would go. What is involved to remove the front cover? By observation it looks like pulling the timer, and then removing a few bolts. Is there a gasket or a need for a gasket between the front cover and the motor?

What about that brass thing, does it belong in there? It looks like it was causing problems.

Thanks!
-Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 08:17 am:

The reproduction seal retainer plates are not made quite right. Also, they are not needed if you have a true original 1914 engine front cover. The seal on the early front cover is stuffed into a groove, and can only be changed with the cover off the engine. It works very well if the seal is installed properly, soaked in grease. This early style cover will not accept the modern seal mentioned by Allan.

Here's what a proper width belt looks like when installed with just the original stuff:




It is at least 1/4" from the back of the belt to the original Ford aluminum roller timer.


If you compare the black Snyders made New Day timer to an original brown New Day you will see that many details of the "S" marked part are not quite right. Those black ones last only a brief period of time before failure. Contacting the fan belt is annoying, but it is not the main problem with this reproduction part.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 08:17 am:

Great job posting pictures, Joe!

I can't speak to the earlier cars, but the belt on my 1924 isn't wide enough to fill the center of the fan pulley. If your pulleys have the proper crowned shape in the center, a narrower belt will run in the middle of the pulley, giving you more clearance.

pic


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo, Milford MI on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 11:21 pm:

I have 4 different belts of different material and from different suppliers. They all measured the same width of 1-1/8". I don't think belt width is causing the issue.

I put the TW timer in and the belt still rubs, but just barely since the TW is slightly shorter than the repop New Day. Since the TW timer is made of steel, I think it will last a while even if the belt rubs while I try to figure out what is out of alignment.

On another note, the TW timer is very well made. It did not stop the surging under load at low RPM, but I don't honestly know if that is a problem, or just a consequence of high load at low RPM.

I sent my original 4 ball carb out to Stan Howe, so when it comes back I will see it it improves anything over the NH in the car now...

-Joe


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