I'm a newbie to the Model T, but not a newbie to working on all sorts of cars, modern or classic.
My 1923 Model T Runabout (a very recent acquisition) came to me with a seized water pump, therefore causing overheating. I was able to free it up, and once it was spinning, the overheating problem went away. However, it clearly had been leaking out of the packing nut for years, causing a corrosion problem, so I decided to replace it with a new one.
I installed the new one today, only to now have lots of coolant dripping out of the heads of both mounting bolts! Now, I know both of those bolts thread into the water jacket on the side of the block, so I had coated the threads with #2 sealer prior to installation... yet, I am amazed how much water continues to drip from the two mounting bolts... now making it worse than it was with the old pump!
What am I doing wrong? Is there a special type of thread sealer out there that I should be using, specifically made for this kind of tough situation, instead of good old #2?
Any input would be greatly appreciated... thanks!
1st off, take the waterpump to the guy that sold it to you and ask for a refund. A waterpump on a Model T is as useful as a screen door on a submarine. The Model T is designed to cool utilizing a thermal-siphoning system and when correct they perform quite well. From the sound of it the bolts that should be holding the coolant inlet on the side of the block have managed to find their way into inside of the water jacket. It sounds like a legitimate use for JB Weld.
Bob, I agree with Michael. I would do away with the water pump, and install the stock Ford outlet and pipe in its place. . They never had a water pump when new. Although they were available in 1926 27. But some people swear by them. So if you want to use it. I would re-check your assembly. That is a very easy area to seal. I use permatex #2 on all my gaskets and have no problem. I would suggest to make sure the bolts do not bottom out. I would recheck the gasket and see if it sealed OK. I have also seen the flange on the pump or stock outlet connection crack by improper tightening techniques. You should run them both in finger tight and then a little at a time on each bolt till tight. If you tighten one side first then the other it usually will crack the flange. Good luck with the repair and the most important thing is to have fun ... submitted with respect Donnie Brown ....
Bob, you need a good gasket between the pump and block.
Their easy to make and Ace Hardware has the material to do it. Leaking around the jam nut and shaft? Again, Ace hardware...Faucet packing. It's about the thickness of a boot lacing, impregnated with water resistant grease and graphite. I won't get into the throes of pump yes or no. Texas is hot and I won't go with out one but your choice. Jerry...
If you remove the water pump, check the upper outlet connector for a thermostat. There shouldn't be one, if there is no water pump. They were usually put between the head and the outlet connector.
If a thermostat is used with a water pump, it would be a 180 degree unit. If you run no water pump, there should be no thermostat, or if you want to use one, a 160 degree unit. Thermostats on Ts is a bone of contention as are water pumps. I say it is up to the individual owner as to how they configure their car.
It's nice when folks pop in and actually ANSWER what was asked.
My car came with a waterpump 12 years ago. I couldn't get the shaft to stop leaking. Tried the stuff from the hardware store to pack the gland. However, if I tightened it enough not leak, it wouldn't turn either. If I loosened it to turn, the shaft pumped the water out. So - as recommended above - I removed the waterpump and put back the original style inlet and have had no problems in the 11 years since.
You do need to get new, longer, bolts to use with the thick flange on the stock inlet. And, a straight pipe and gasket.
Try adding one or two washers under the bolt heads and see if that helps. Could be the bolts are a mite too long and not compressing the gasket.
I run a water pump one mine, so having one on a T is not an issue for me.
Re leaking shaft, the shaft on most original pumps are just steel shafts, they get rust pits and corrosion in the seal area. No amount of tightening the packing nut will make it quick dripping.
Anytime I rebuild a T or A pump they get stainless steel shafts.
OK, here's the really weird thing about all this... this is a brand-new American-made water pump kit from Lang's... which included the gasket and two bolts, one longer than the other. In removing the pump tonight, there was NO coolant inside the threaded portions of the block... nor did it open-up into the water jackets at all! Additionally, the long and short bolts can only go in one position, otherwise, there is not enough thread sticking out to even hit the threads in the block. However, when you have the bolts in the correct position, like I did, they only stick-out barely half an inch... and there is close to an inch depth available in the threaded portion of the block... thereby eliminating the possibility of either of the bolts bottoming-out. When I pulled the new pump, I checked it for any cracking that might have occurred, and I see no issues there.
Right now, I'm at a total loss, as to what's going on here... none of it is making any sense to me, especially when you look at how it is physically connected to the side of the block. It's not rocket science here, but so far, it's a major leak, in spite of how simple the installation is.
Lang's has to sell water pumps and thermostats. All the other T vendors sell them. If Lang's did not have them in the catalog they would miss out on revenue.
Sooner or later most Model T owners realize that the water pump and thermostat just cause unnecessary trouble. Once you reach that conclusion your T will become much more fun to own. You will never have another day ruined by a water pump or thermostat.
I have a water pump in the garage that is working fine:
Amen Royce, amen!
If leaking remove it problem solved
Remove the pump and check the mating surfaces on the block and original water outlet fitting. If pitted use a new gasket and sealer.
It should be that simple.
The holes in the block were not originally drilled through to the water jacket. Maybe your bolts are too long, or the threads are dirty and the bolts are not going down all the way. I agree that the T does not use a water pump. I have used them in the past and find that they do not help the cooling of the engine, however they do have several problems which are avoided if you use the original water inlet without the pump. Whether you use the pump or not, you need to put the fitting on first without a gasket and check that both bolts do not bottom out before the fitting is tight against the block. If the bolts are too long, grind some off. Next use a good gasket and especially if the surface of the block is pitted use good gasket sealer. Tighten both finger tight and then turn a little with a wrench alternating from side to side till you get about 30 ft lbs. The leak should be fixed.
There is another potential problem which could be the cause of your leak. Sometimes the water jacket is cracked or rusted out under the edge and if it is near the water inlet, might appear to be a leak there. So check that area for leaks too.
I do know that the surface where the pump mounts onto is clean and smooth, with no visible issues. I was also able to hold the water pump next to the mounting surface, and hand-tighten the bolts much farther into the holes than the pump is thick, so again, hole depth does not seem to be the issue.
While inspecting the problem with an automotive inspection mirror, it was also pretty clear that there was no coolant leaking out of the gasketed surface where the pump was bolted up against the block. It was only evident that fluid was dripping only from where the mounting bolt heads were up against the body of the pump... but, since there was later no evidence of any water seepage coming from the threaded bolt-hole openings, that does not make any sense.
To eliminate any possible hidden issues with the new water pump, I've ordered the basic water inlet fitting, and will try putting it all back to stock once that comes. However, now my new concern is, am I still going to have coolant dripping out of the mounting bolts when the stock inlet is installed?
I'll continue to post as this saga develops...
If your observations are correct: 1. that the mounting holes do not penetrate the water jacked and 2. that the weeping is coming from the area around the bolt heads, that leaves only one possibility.
There must be a manufacturing defect in the water pump ..... a crack from the water passage through to the bolt hole? It is a casting and castings do crack during the manufacturing process and sometimes are not caught in quality control.
Yes, Bud, that oould always be a possibility.
The interesting thing is that I put it all back together today, only this time using Permatex High Temperature Thread Sealant on the threads, and at first, there was no leakage going on at all. Then I ran the car for a while, and it developed a tiny, tiny seepage from only one of the two boltheads. Then I drove it a couple of blocks, and there was no seepage (at least so far).
The fact that I only put the thread sealer on the threads, and nowhere else, resulting in a huge difference, makes me think that somehow there IS some leakage from the water jacket into the threaded holes (although the back of the thread-holes both seemed rock solid?)... but again, the mystery will continue, and we'll see how long it lasts.
As stated before, I will most likely remove the pump and put it all back to stock, when I get the needed parts, if for no other reason than to eliminate the pump as somehow being the culprit.
My thanks to all for your input; it's much appreciated!
Glad you figured out the problem, it is always nice to at least get the question / issue resolved.
When you remove the pump your car should cool just fine so long as the radiator is functioning properly. If it overheats without the pump you've got something else wrong and need to figure that out. Whether or not you run one is your choice, but if your car requires one to avoid overheating something is wrong.
I do think that this motor heats-up very quickly, even with the water pump on it; however, I've flushed the radiator a couple of times already, and water seems to readily flow through it OK from top to bottom(at least so far).
We'll see what happens once I've removed the water pump and am running totally stock!
If it's an old radiator it's common for the fins to break free from the cooling tubes and then it won't cool effectively. Is it an original or newer radiator, or old radiator with newer core? If it's older there isn't much to be done but recore or replace it. Good luck and let us know!
I do think it's fairly old, as it appears to be the older OEM round-tube style.
Also, while there is only minimal rust throughout the system (surprisingly clean, actually!), I did notice that, when putting on a new set of hoses the other day, the bottom outlet of the radiator seemed to be made of cast iron, and had a small chunk of it missing along the bottom edge... but not enough to render it unusable.
I drove it for a few blocks today, with the water pump on and working, and the overheating issue is still gone, but now the leakage from the water pump mounting bolts has stopped as well. Perhaps it has something to do with the thread sealer curing more, over the last few days? Anyway, I may leave the water pump in place for a while now, at least until it starts leaking again (if it does)...
Yep, if it ain't broke, you don't have to fix it
But you can have the std parts with you in the turtle deck just in case the water pump starts to act up during a trip. As long as you are moving, the fan or fan belt isn't really necessary, so you'll be able to drive home without pump or fan belt - if you can find water to refill the radiator after the change to the regular water inlet
Sure sounds like there were cracks in the threaded areas of the block. Happened to me one time. I used block sealant and it cured the problem.
Yep, I just received the standard water inlet, bolts, gasket and shorter fan belt, in case I need to remove the pump after all...