Improved car

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Improved car
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 05:41 pm:

Someone on the forum indicated that there was an early and late spare rim bracket assy, Part # 2872 and factory # 7317A. It had something to do with different mounting of the bracket to the body of a Roadster(runabout) and/or coupe.\

I did not hear of this before. Donnie Brown and other improved car people, what are your thoughts? This bracket is used on both the runabout and coupe body style.

Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 06:07 pm:

There is a version with three bolts to the body/body frame and another version with four bolts. Here's a picture of the four bolt version:

Tired

The three bolt version has only one bolt to the body frame. The upper bolts attaches to a bracket behind the sheet metal.

Unfortunately I don't know which version was early and which was late?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Castelldefels (Spain) on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 06:11 pm:

My 1927 Roadster was built in September 1926. It has the 3 hole bracket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 06:14 pm:

Ok, then it's likely one of Fords continous cost savings - four bolts first, three bolts later on when tested and found sufficient.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Castelldefels (Spain) on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 06:22 pm:

I found a couple of pictures from when I was disassembling the car for painting.

The bending under of the bodywork is caused by having no bumpers but bumping anyway... with the spare tire!




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 06:25 pm:

Ouch, I made a mistake there, assuming the single hole was down on the three hole versions as I would have designed it.. Sorry, should have looked among my parts before posting..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Sole - Castelldefels (Spain) on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 06:46 pm:

Roger - I too remembered the holes being as you said, until the pictures reminded me differently! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 08:52 pm:

Thanks guys.

Donnie Brown can then add that the early spare tire bracket mounted to the body with four fasteners (two on the top portion of the circle and two on the bottom portion of the circle) and the later style mounted to the body with three fasteners: one on top of the circle and two on the bottom portion of the circle!

Since you guys are not in the U.S.A. could this have been an offshore change or does anyone in the U.S.A. have a coupe or runabout with the three holes to the body mounting?

Do not want to give Donnie Brown incorrect information!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 09:07 pm:

My investigation and opinion was that the three bolt was used last.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Sunday, August 09, 2015 - 10:18 pm:

I was aware of the 2 versions, I am like the rest of you and believe the 4 hole came first then the three hole. My same thoughts as to it being a cost cutting thing. But I have no documentation as to which came first, just some observations from existing cars. Interesting thought about the offshore possibility. Ill have to do a little more research about that option, but I have seen enough of both versions to think "not". But it may also be a "Canada" thing. Too early to say ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Monday, August 10, 2015 - 04:15 pm:

Donnie and others: would not there need to be a part number or suffix change when they went from one mounting configuration to another? If one purchased a four hole mount it would not fit on a body that had only 3 holes to mount.

I looked at a price list of parts dated Nov 1,1937 and even there it listed only part number 2872 or factory number 7317A for the bracket for the Roadster and Coupe. You would think after 10 years they would have listed both types if both types were used!

I could see if it did not effect fit or function to have the same number, but in this case fit is a problem!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Monday, August 10, 2015 - 05:47 pm:

Researching the Panel (deck center) Assy Lower I found two different numbers as follows:
48206ARX for 1926 and 48206BX for 1926 and 1927 roadsters/runabouts.

I do not know what the difference is, but it may have something to do with the spare tire bracket mounting holes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale L Myers on Monday, August 10, 2015 - 08:26 pm:

The roadster that Roger posted the photo of was built in October 1925


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Saturday, August 15, 2015 - 06:19 pm:

Just came back from a car show today, and there was a coupe with the three bolt attachment of the spare tire carrier to the back of the body. There was also a roadster with a four bolt attachment of the spare tire carrier to the back of the body. Both of these were the improved models. Do not know the production dates of either vehicle.

So that means they exist in the United States. Does anyone know why Ford did not assign different part numbers or suffix number to these parts. I have only seen one part number for this spare tire bracket, yet two different mounting attachments to the body?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house . . .caldwell county, TX on Saturday, August 15, 2015 - 09:20 pm:

What an interesting thread! I had never given it a thought but this discussion caused me to get up and out of my comfort zone watching Houston lose to San Francisco and go out to the Conservatory and inspect my late '27 coupe and early '26 roadster. I'm second owner of both Ts and they're both matching serial number cars. Sure enough, the roadster has 4 bolts and the coupe three. Must be export models to the Republic of Texas.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Saturday, August 15, 2015 - 10:21 pm:

George, can you give me the dates of manufacture of your two cars. I am compiling a list of early and late features on the various different parts. Your two cars sound like a good candidate for early versus late. Maybe with enough dates we can get a little better picture of when some of the changes happened ... Thanks .... Donnie Brown ... Arnie, I have sent two PM messages and you are not getting them . Please send your e-mail address to me: dobro (at) artelco.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A Bartsch on Saturday, August 15, 2015 - 11:20 pm:

Donnie:

Three bolt carrier, 26 coupe 13606xxx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Sunday, August 16, 2015 - 03:25 am:

James, Thanks ....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house . . .caldwell county, TX on Sunday, August 16, 2015 - 08:06 am:

Wilco Donnie. This afternoon after church.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A Bartsch on Sunday, August 16, 2015 - 08:39 am:

Donnie:

I would be curious to know if the 3-bolt to 4-bolt change happened when the coupe body rear subframe design was 'simplified'. My '26 with 3 bolt carrier has the more complex rear to side subframe corner connections made up of several individual pieces in the corners. Later subframe corners were simply mitered & joined @ 45 degrees.

respectfully, jb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A Bartsch on Sunday, August 16, 2015 - 08:44 am:

Donnie:

I would be curious to know when the coupe body rear subframe design was 'simplified'. My '26 with 3 bolt carrier has the more complex rear to side subframe corner connections made up of several individual pieces in the corners. Later subframe corners were simply mitered & joined @ 45 degrees.

respectfully, jb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Sunday, August 16, 2015 - 10:37 am:

My 26 coupe, January 5,1926 has the four bolt design.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house . . .caldwell county, TX on Sunday, August 16, 2015 - 05:38 pm:

Donnie - as promised and this brackets the beginning and end of 'New and Improved'. The 4 bolt spare tire carrier in the '26 model year roadster is engine and frame number 12,765,011 of November '25 and the engine/frame number 14,996,409 of the coupe had a 3 bolt spare carrier fastened in May of '27. This was an interesting exercise for me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Sunday, August 16, 2015 - 08:25 pm:

Thanks everyone. Ill add the numbers to my growing list of dates for Improved Model features. We may never figure it out but it is fun trying, and the more info we gather the better for all of the T world. Thanks again ... Donnie Brown ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Benedict, Humboldt, TN on Monday, August 17, 2015 - 10:20 am:

My car is a 135XXXXX series model T coupe. This is April 26. It has 3 bolt attachment, 2 on bottom, I on top. Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Monday, August 17, 2015 - 09:57 pm:

So far Jan 1926 is the latest 4 bolt number, and April 1926 is the earliest 3 bolt style number. This indicates the change was made in the 1926 model year. So if more numbers hold true to the numbers I already have, sometime in Jan, Feb, March, or April 1926 is when the change happened. It is still too early to say, as I need lots of numbers to give a good survey. Several of the cars surveyed appear to be very good candidates for the parts being correct to the engine/frame numbers. But more numbers will just help reinforce the final decision... Thanks again. Please keep the numbers coming, along with a brief description of why the parts are probably correct to your car numbers. Donnie Brown ....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Tuesday, August 18, 2015 - 11:41 am:

Donnie:

If someone has the prints or record of changes for part number panel assembly 48206ARX 1926 only and panel assembly 48206BX used both for 1926 and 1927 and if (key word!!)it shows that the hole configuration for mounting the spare tire is different in this panel assembly, we might get our answer as to which was first for sure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 10:07 am:

Donnie:

I do not understand. Tom C. mentioned a 1927 with a four bolt spare tire mount. Therefore it seems to be question just when the change was made!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 10:59 am:

Arnie. I am not seeing a Tom C above with the 4 bolt 27 mount . ??? but I am old and blind . :-) As to it being possible for the 4 bolts to run into 27 model years. It could very likely happen, due to using up parts at a different rate at the different branches, or the different branches being slower to implement the change ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie Spokane, WA on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 11:30 am:

Did I say 1927 with 4 bolt? If I said that, I believe I was mistaken. I think early is 4 bolt, late is 3 bolt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 06:52 pm:

Tom Carnegie, I was wrong! You stated a 3 bolt spare tire carrier in your August 23rd 11:33 posting. I just got to screw my head on straight again. So Donnie, you might be correct with four bolt early and later (to save money??) a three bolt design was used. Thanks for pointing this out to me. I want us/me to be as accurate as possible, so I want to correct any/many of my errors before they spread out as truth!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale Kemmerer Medford, Or on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 09:18 pm:

my July 7 -26 has three bolt


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 09:45 pm:

Thanks Dale, one more number to the list :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Rodell, Sr.- Wisconsin on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 11:42 pm:

Donnie,
The 3 bolt roadster/coupe spare tire mount came in more than one length, also. There is 5/8" difference in how far the mount sets the tire away from the body. I suspect that Ford increased the length in the later mount.
I can't re-size and post photos, so I emailed you a note with the photos showing the difference a few days ago. If you can not find it, I can re-send it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 01:24 am:

Jim, Yes I received the pics, but have been so busy I forgot to get back to you. Ill post them here for everyone to see the two different lengths of the 3 bolt style you have. I agree with your thoughts about the longer one being a change to give a little more room for the trunk lid to open .???? Just an opinion at this time but it does make sense. Thanks for taking the time to send them .... Donnie Brown

1

2

3

4

5

6

7


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 01:28 am:

Does anyone know what length the sedan mounts are. I am un-familiar with anything pertaining to sedans. .... Do they look like the mounts shown above or are they totally different . ?? Thanks Donnie Brown ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Benedict, Humboldt, TN on Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 07:34 am:

Just a side note... My April 26 coupe has the short mount. A flat washer between the body and the mount at the top, moves the spare tire out enough for the trunk to pass.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Rodell, Sr.- Wisconsin on Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 11:31 pm:

Donnie,
The 1926 and 1927 sedans use the same "goose-neck" type spare tire carrier as the touring cars, and are mounted to the rear spring clamps on the cross member.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Friday, August 28, 2015 - 09:21 am:

Jim, Thanks. I found a couple pics of the sedan mounts. Just one more of the things I never really paid attention to.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Saturday, September 05, 2015 - 06:38 pm:

One of my friends has a spare tire mount that has 3 holes near the top part of the flange that mounts to the body and two holes near the bottom of the flange that mounts to the body! I do not know if this is stock, so we will need to see more of this configuration. If indeed this configuration was used a three hole body mounting arrangement or a four hole body mounting arrangement could use the same spare tire mount part! At his time just fiction not fact. We need more information from forum members to make sense out of this!


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