It's only flat on the bottom

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: It's only flat on the bottom
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Santilla on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 01:58 pm:

I don't understand why I am having so many flat tires. I have had three flats in the two or three hundred miles I have put on the car. It is an early 1926 roadster pickup that I fully restored. When I restored and painted the 30x31/2 wheels they were sandblasted primed and painted inside and out. I check the clincher edges and if I found any to be too sharp I filed them until I could safely rub my hand over them without cutting myself. But what is happening is the valve stems are being sliced off as if with a sharp knife. I was told this was happening due to low tire pressure. I never leave the garage with the car until I have checked the tire pressure. I am currently running them a 60psi and low and behold yesterday another flat tire at the most awful time and place possible. It kind of scares me to take the car places. So tell me what I'm doing wrong or things I can check. All the tires, tubes and flaps are less than two years old.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROBERT BERGSTADT on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 02:07 pm:

Are you running 60-65 lbs per 30x 3 1/2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROBERT BERGSTADT on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 02:08 pm:

Sorry missed that


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 02:11 pm:

Why are you running 30X3.5 on a 26 roadster it came with 21 inch split rim de mountables or whire wheels? The reason the valve stems are being sliced by the tire slipping on the rim and moving the tube and cutting the stems were the rims powder coated if that is true that coating can be real slick so that wuold need to be roughed up a bit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 05:02 pm:

Non electric Fords could still be bought with 30x3-1/2" clinchers in 1926.
Don't know what's your specific problem, but I have read about quality problems with some thin modern tubes.. :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 05:22 pm:

Metal valve stems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 05:25 pm:

oops:-( forgot about the non electric, but I have never seen a non electric roadster.:-) live & Learn


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 06:31 pm:

I work on a 26 coupe with starter that has had the 30 inch wheels as long as anyone can remember and has the proper spare tire mount for them.

If you have flaps installed in the tires, the bead is in the channel then the tire really should not move at 60LBs. I've seen tires that were a good amount under that that stayed in one place.
The only other suggestion I could add is if you are using a lot of soap/tire mounting goop it could be acting like a lube an not letting the bead stay in one place, that or quit showing off all them HP by spinning the tires. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Santilla on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 06:39 pm:

First of all thank each and everyone of you who have responded so far.

The wheels were painted not powder coated.

I bought the tires, tubes and flaps from one of the big three vendors. I questioned that vendor about the quality of the tubes and they said they had not received many complaints. I don't think installing metal stems would help since the stems are being cut at the intersection of the stem and tube.

For what it's worth I believe the car was not originally electric since the starter switch is bolted on instead of being riveted in place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 09:03 pm:

Bob, when you say you took a file to you rims to take out any thin/rough spots, the warning bells sounded for me. If the rim edges have rusted thin, then the groove in which the tyre bead sets will have rusted also, and blasting it to remove rust will make the groove larger. Consequently, the tyre bead will be a less than ideal fit in the rim. The 60psi pressure is meant to force the tyre into the bead, but if that bead is too large, it will never be a tight fit.
There is no substitute for a good rim. People new to T's have no reference to how a good rim looks when compared with one which is rusted thin.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 09:30 pm:

Bob,

Just out of curiosity (on my part) do you have access to - or can you borrow another tire gauge and assure yourself that you are indeed keeping 60 psi in your tires?

I've seen gauges give erroneous readings - by a GREAT amount.

Something is allowing the tubes to slip - if not low pressure - perhaps Allan has the answer - unless, of course the rims are slippery smooth.

(Message edited by adave on August 14, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 09:58 pm:

Bob,

Bottom Line Up Front: I missed where you said what type of 30 x 3 1/2 clincher wheels & rims you have. “IF” you have the loose lug (removable lug) style rims mounted on the wrong style fellow, the rear rims will shift under braking and acceleration and cut the valve stems.

Additional discussion:

First please confirm which wheels the flats occurred. I.e. only on the front? Only on the rear?

Second please confirm if they occurred on the same rim or on three different rims.

Third please confirm what style of rim and felloe you have on your car.

There was a 30 x 3 1/2 non-demountable style (which was available for the early 1926 Ts sold in calendar year 1925 [ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels and they were only offered on the non-starter open cars and then they had to be special ordered. Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1926.htm see the + + sign on the $290 touring and $290 roadster that lead you to the comment, “
++ Early models with 30 x 3-1/2 non-demountable wheels and no starter. Available only on special order before calendar 1926.


There was a 30 x 3 1/2 demountable style wheel and rim that was standard on the open cars until the 21 inch wheels and tires became standard in calendar year 1926. Same ref: : http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1926.htm “ NOTE: Starter and 21” demountable wheels were standard on all cars after early calendar 1926. Early 1926 cars with 30 by 3-1/2” demountables (then standard equipment) were 10 pounds lighter than the later cars.”

For the demountable style they can be broken into two general groups.

Those with fixed lugs that are permanently attached to the demountable rim and the second style those with loose or removable lugs that are NOT permanently attached to the rim.

“IF” you have the demountable clinchers and they have the loose lugs, there is a possibility that you have one of the rims produced by Cleveland, Firestone, and possibly others for Ford that require a lug around the valve stem that fits into a cup in the felloe to keep the rim from turning on the felloe. The photo below courtesy of Steve Shelton shows the two different styles of loose lug rims that used the “lug” around the valve stem. The numbers on the photos are the part numbers listed in the Ford Price List of Parts for those items.



The photo below shows the 2846-C loose lug holding the 2845-C rim.



Steve’s photo below shows the “cup” in the felloe that the “lug” around the valve stem fits in to keep the rim from moving/turning on the felloe.



The Hayes style felloe does not have the “cup” on the felloe at the valve stem. If you mount a 2845C or 2845D loose lug rim on that style felloe, the rim will often rotate and cut the valve stem – especially on the rear wheels.



There is a third style loose lug felloe and rim that was produced by Kelsey. But it uses a different lug that goes over one of the lug bolts to keep it from rotating on the felloe.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Warren on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 11:26 pm:

Absolutely great info thanks Hap


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Friday, August 14, 2015 - 11:45 pm:

I don't think the type of lug is the issue, the tire is slipping on the rim.
I have over a dozen spare 30 x 3.5 non demountable rims and they vary from 2" - 2.25" - 2.5". Confirm your rims are compatible with the tires. It should take a lot of abuse for a proper fitting tire to move on the rim.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Saturday, August 15, 2015 - 01:38 am:

Bob, The suggestion about metal stems is due to the fact the rubber ones are faulty. They let out the air.

I had some let go when doing a cross country run in 2011. If you look at the link below you can see a photo of a rubber stem. They are not able to stand the 60 PSI and let the air leak out once the pressure drops the tire can then move around the rim.

Being on the road I used small hose clamps to clamp the valve stem, the front ones are still on there 4 years and several thousand miles later.
See link below if not working Forum 2011 June 30th 10: 32

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/219907.html?1309487522


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Patterson. Moruya, NSW, OZ on Saturday, August 15, 2015 - 02:04 am:

Here's what mine were like until I mustered the will to change all the tubes to metal stems.
All of them had de-laminated from the metal inner cores.
.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Saturday, August 15, 2015 - 08:43 am:

I had a couple of tubes with that sort of problem. The miniature hose clamp was an effective long term fix.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary London, Camarillo, CA on Saturday, August 15, 2015 - 09:34 am:

I had this issue with swelling valve stems on tubes I bought from Snyders. I have not had it from the tubes sold by Lucas, which are heavier ( hold both at the same time, there is a noticeable difference)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul griesse--Granville,Ohio on Saturday, August 15, 2015 - 09:47 am:

I had very similar problems UNTIL I replaced all the tubes with the metal stem ones--The rubber stem tube furnished by most vendors are JUNK--Good luck, Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Santilla on Saturday, August 15, 2015 - 11:44 am:

First of all thank each and everyone of you who have responded so far.

This is my first model T and when I bought it was completely apart. I had never installed a wheel and tire on the other part of the wheel I guess you refer to it as the felloe. I just looked at all four of my wheels which are all marked Hayes on the piece where the lug nut fastens. All four are on the felloe at different depths. When properly installed should you be able to see the raised edge as on 2845D wheel as shown above on Hap's photos? All three of my flat tires have been on different positions. One on each side of the rear and the latest on the left front while rounding a gradual left hand turn at slow speed.
The tire gauge I use is a professional model that has been checked against others to make sure it is right on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Biggs on Saturday, August 15, 2015 - 01:05 pm:

Gentlemen. I started a thread on August 13th called Clincher Tires and Tubes. In this, I reported on the failure of three tubes related to failures on 28 x 3 tubes which were identified during the preparation tours for the New London to New Brighton Tour. I don't believe these failures were due to incorrect inflation pressures or sharp edges to the rims. (Both cars were Fords with highly experienced owners).
In one case, the tire simply deflated when the car was standing idle with the owner away for coffee. It deflated with the same sound you get when a valve is insert is extracted. PSHHHHHHH. It transpires that the rubber stem had detached from the tube.
The second incident was a blow out on the move with loud bang. Once again, the rubber stem of a recently fitted tube had become detached. The tire had a flap. The brand new replacement tube which the owner carried in his spare kit was taken from its packaging but the stem was already half detached from the tube. Fortunately, another driver had a good 28 x 3 tube with a metal stem which we fitted to get the stricken car back on the road.
Two rubber stem tubes which failed had the words MADE IN EEC in the rubber. I did not examine the third tube (the one which deflated when the car was static.)
There is a worrying trend developing and I think it is important to gather as much information as possible and then get back to the suppliers to sort things out. It is easy for them to be unaware of the problem if the users don't report the issues.
We are dependent on a small number of tire and tube suppliers to support our hobby. If their quality control is failing then those of us who drive their cars regularly and over distances are in big trouble.
In the meantime, I suggest that everybody looks carefully at their spare tubes to make certain that the stem and tube are securely attached before venturing out on the road again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, August 15, 2015 - 08:43 pm:

Bob, in your last post you say the lug on the rim is branded Hayes. Is this lug fixed to the rim? If so, the felloe on the rim is most likely to have the outside edge rolled inwards. Is this so? If it is, and you have rims with fixed lugs, then there should be a relief in the outside edge of the felloe where the foot on the fixed lug goes. When these rims are bolted to the felloe, the lug should stand off the outer edge of the felloe a bit. The rim should be a tight fit on the back [inside] land on the felloe. If this land is worn, perhaps by the rim being loose at some time, then the rim may go on far enough to allow the lug to bottom out on the side of the felloe.
This may or may not be the reason your rims go on at different depths.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Saturday, August 15, 2015 - 09:23 pm:

I agree with Paul Griesse. The rubber stem tubes that are available at this time are JUNK. I would bet that the metal stem tubes weigh over twice as much and the rubber seems to be much higher quality. This is one area where you get what you pay for. I put metal stem tubes from Lang's in my 14 Touring when I got it and have never had a flat.


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration