TT C cab roof differences - maybe an answer?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: TT C cab roof differences - maybe an answer?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 10:27 pm:

The question has come up about the two variations that exist with the C cab truck roof structures. The less common roof is a low style as compared to the more common high roof style with the provisions for side curtain stowage. A link was recently made in another post that noted some Ford advertisement reproductions used to show dealers the various types of advertising for the day. When looking at the ads for the C cab truck, both styles of truck roofs are illustrated. One ad in particular details various options and prices including the "closed cab" option for $20. The closed cab option was for side curtains. Trucks without this option were known as "open cab". It made me wonder what all of the components were for the "closed cab" option. Obviously the side curtains were part of it but could the high roof been another part of the package? It is well documented through original photos that all C cabs had curtain rod holes in the doors but what about the roof? It makes sense that the roof would be lower (less wood) and without the stowage clips for the curtains if the option wasn't ordered. Could this be the reason behind the difference or did Ford simply not account for storing the curtains early on in the C cab production and corrected it by changing the roof all together? I don't know but it may be an explanation.








Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 12:12 am:

The "$20 Closed cab option" is a different model. All your examples show an Open Cab or as we refer to them as C-Cab. The Closed Cab looks nothing like it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 12:33 am:

Your keen to notice the roof differences in the early 24s Justin. I have been looking for years trying to locate a date this change came about. I have original documents that show the change but no date. I also have several Factory photos that show the low roof with side curtains. I had a notion that the roof was extended to store the curtains but what of the lower roof but where would the store then?. I thought that maybe the curtains were a later option but then what were the holes in the top of all the doors all about?

The first two adds that are posted are from at least 1925. The last two do show a 24 model. Yes the only price difference between the open and closed cabs was only $20 which was a lot of money back then.
Thanks for posting the ads.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 06:56 am:

Well so much for my half baked super sleuthing! I was under the assumption that all of these ads came out before the actual closed cab truck with the full doors was introduced. That and it is hard to believe that the upgrade was only $20. Thanks for the all inclusive price list above, Ken.

I am still interested in the low C cab roof. It would be great if someone that has one of these trucks with the low style roof could post some detailed pictures of it inside and out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 08:11 am:

As a side note: The parts book dated March 15, 1927 lists the same panels (upper and lower rear) and roof assembly for all C-Cab years--24-26.

I'm not clear on what you mean by low roof and high roof differences. Are you sure you're not confusing aftermarket/custom bodies of a similar design?

The body below was not made by Ford.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 09:22 am:

Ken, the side boards on the roof structure on early models are about half the width of the later ones. Compare the roofs of the first two ads to the roofs in the second two ads. Below is a clearer view of the low roof style. Note that on the low roof side there are no drilled holes for the legs of side curtains when they are being stored.

High side roof board


Low side roof board


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 09:38 am:

There was a discussion on side curtains a few weeks ago. This helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 09:40 am:

My Gramps' 1924 C-Cab Express bought new in December of '23 has the "low" roof sides. I'm not certain about the side curtain hardware - will have to look again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 09:44 am:

Steve, can you get any shots of the inside of your roof structure and post them?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 10:06 am:

It's not uncommon to see variations in ad drawings. As for your second photo, it looks to me like the top was replaced. I've never seen a factory top that overhangs the sides. The roof frame is a major structural component of the upper body. The overhang would just be an add-on or the top is a fabricated replacement by someone that didn't have the factory drawings. The truck is clearly (to me) not original nor is the photo in the same era. A lot can happen over the course of 90+ years. Few have original wood. Even fewer have original top cover material.

It's known that there were some variations during factory production but I have not seen it in the tops of the C-Cabs. I'm not saying I can't be persuaded. I just can't be persuaded by ad drawings or by a single photo of an altered truck. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 10:26 am:

Here's a couple more low ones.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 11:52 am:

Perhaps if I had a *low* cab I could get it into my garage.
Justin: Thanks for the photo of an installed, original side curtain...I am looking for more photos.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 06:06 pm:

John, did you happen to notice the different side curtain construction on the Budd truck picture and also in the printed ad that I posted originally? If you compare the windows to your original curtain you'll see that they are different. Yours are more wedge shaped and the ones pictured above are square/rectangular. I would like to see the shape of the steel curtain rod because there is no way it matches what you or I have. By the way, the curtain style that you have matches the drawings that you can get from the vendors and the date is October 31, 1924 with revisions in January and August of 1926.

Below is a good shot of Anthony Marino's side curtain on the inside with the steel frame which also matches yours.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 08:36 pm:

Justin,
I'll try & remember my camera when I go back over to the other shop where the truck is.

Ken - my Gramps' truck sat outside in Seattle most of it's life but my Gramps did have tin installed over both the cab & express canopy soon after purchasing (too tall to fit in their garage !) so all the original wood & top material is present


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Chillingworth on Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 11:49 pm:

Interestingly, when the C-Cab top was raised, the notches which previously provided room for the top wood slats remained for quite a while despite no longer being needed. At some point it appears the notches were eliminated.

Rich C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 12:03 am:

Interesting, I never knew there were different C-cab heights. I know of two of them that were lowered by guys so they would fit in their garages.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 08:21 am:

There you go! Great pictures, Rich. Now that's more convincing. :-) Any idea what the engine number was on the "notched" version?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 10:02 am:

Thanks for the pictures Rich. It would be great if Steve's roof has the original inner structure and brackets so that we can see all of what changed in the roof. It would also be nice to see a good photo of the later variation of C cab side that had the reinforcing brace running up the inside.

Regarding the side curtains, I wonder if there was actually a difference in the mounting frame and if anyone has one that we could look at.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Chillingworth on Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 12:23 pm:

Here are pics of a late C-Cab showing the reinforcing braces.

Rich C.

P.S. My WiFi connection is acting up today so if this post shows up more than once I apologize


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donald Vagasky,Tucson on Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 07:43 pm:

Rich
That CCab is a very early one, according to the owner, Archie Lewis near Albuquerque in New Mexico. Note that the top is the low style, and there is no provisions for the stowage of the side curtains. I have more pics of that and some others in his collection some where, I'll dig them up and post.
Don


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Chillingworth on Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 07:52 pm:

Thanks for the correction Don. I look forward to your pictures.

Rich C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 08:14 pm:

I believe that the last C cab that Rich posted is the latest style. The reinforcing brace was added due to the amount of flex in the free hanging roof. The middle of the "C" and the outer corners of the rear flange would crack due to constant flexing. If you look at the roof wood on this one it is pretty clear that it isn't original. In fact, the small metal braces that are supporting the center wood slat are actually the rear side curtain support brackets that were re-purposed when the roof was made. You can see the four rivet holes in the bottom of them where the original felt attached.

Rich's first picture shows the notches for the true early low roof style. The wood cross braces in the roof sat in these notches.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 08:36 pm:

I really appreciate all of the details that this thread is providing...it gives a new dimension to the C-Cab development. Lots of C-Cabs out there...very interesting. Thanks all. John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 09:11 pm:

Here is a low roof, notched top edge truck with that nasty crack that I mentioned:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donald Vagasky,Tucson on Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 09:54 pm:

Justin, maybe some with later CCabs will chime in to clear that up. My CCab is a 1925. This is the only CCab I have ever seen with the brace. The Archie Lewis Collection is located in Moriarty NM. You can see the yard on the south side of the interstate with all the cars.
You are showing the same pics I took a couple years ago.
Don


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 10:09 pm:

The C cab that the Texas Transportation Museum also has the brace on the side. It is described as a 1924 but it is hard to say if it was born that year or not. It is easy to pick out an inner braced cab from the outside since there are 3 rivets on the bottom of the "C" instead of 2 on non-braced cabs. As far as photos go, I search Google to find them since there is such a large amount to search through.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 10:21 pm:

I really am enjoying this thread and all of the information and variances that are coming up. I have learned a good bit so far but it is really unfortunate that there is so little Ford documentation that has been dug up on this particular Model T. I'm obviously partial to C cabs since that is the only one that I have but considering it's historical importance in the truck world it would be nice to have some honest to goodness variations, dates of changes, and reasons for the changes in print form.

My cab was in very original condition when I got it; right down to the felt that was nailed to the underside of some of the roof braces to help cushion the side curtains when stored. What a great resource it would be to have this information all in one place for those who venture to fix one of these up in the future.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Thursday, August 27, 2015 - 10:39 pm:

Someone on the west coast was gathering information to do a book on TT's, but I don't remember who.

We do know of several changes between the early and later Ford made TT cabs.

For example:

The inside brace on C Cabs
The roof height on C Cabs
Short versus long running boards
The early vs. later body mount brackets
Use of the early style rectangular switch & ampmeter plate vs. the oval '26 '27 car switch
There are probably more of these changes as well.

Knowing these changes is good, but we don't know when they were made, and if they were all made at about the same time.

I've had a lingering question for some time, and that is did TT's continue to be made for some time after T car production stopped? I've raised that question before, but never got an answer.

Can anyone add to this?

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Friday, August 28, 2015 - 04:30 am:

This is a very interesting thread. I had no idea that there are differences in the C cabs. It just goes to show what I have said for a very long time, "The more we learn about these T's, the less we know". I wonder (and doubt) if we will ever know everything about them. Dave


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