Old T Racer at track, where & When?????

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Old T Racer at track, where & When?????
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Richmon on Wednesday, September 23, 2015 - 05:24 am:

Alright Guys, This picture was posted a couple of years ago, I believe the #7 car is my restored Speedster! Does anyone have this original picture or know when & where it was taken? Thanks, Bob#7 Racer


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russell Nave on Thursday, September 24, 2015 - 08:42 pm:

Its interesting to compare the two lowering methods.
The straight axle car is lower than the drop axle car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Richmon on Thursday, September 24, 2015 - 08:56 pm:

I'm not sure what's supporting that straight axle, but it sure lowered the car!
Doesn't anyone know when & where this picture came from?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Clary on Thursday, September 24, 2015 - 11:28 pm:

I'd say the guy in the middle travels from town to town smoking the local boys.

Andy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 12:23 am:

I am lousy with past thread searches. But if I recall correctly? This photo was discussed a couple times in the past. I don't recall if the location was known or not.
We would love to see some good pictures of your car! How much is it like the car in the photo? Is the front axle dropped the same way?
Paco built very nice bodies. I have seen three or four of them over the years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Richmon on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 02:58 am:

Wayne, my Paco was originally "The Cootie" which I was able to identify by certain rivets in the body that we installed to make a major repair from an accident. I have pictures of these, but removed them and made proper repairs during my restoration of the car. In the original Cootie picture the car had the wood wheels and the exhaust came out the drivers side. When I got my car it had the exhaust coming out the passenger side since it had a Fronty Head as well as 26'/27' wire wheels. My car also had the #7 on it before the restoration. If you look at the #7 on "The Cootie" & on the Paco at this race track you'll see they are the same.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Richmon on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 03:06 am:

Here's a picture of "The Cootie" This was take in 1922 behind the white house. The drive is Capt. Kopper. I'm still trying to find out who this guy was???The Cootie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 08:00 am:

Thats pretty neat to have the original cootie! That is a great speedster. Where did you find it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 08:11 am:

Since the last photo appears to be of the same car in the first photo; and the last photo appears to be taken in front of the White House, I doubt that this will help any...but here is a link to a nice site about early race cars and tracks in Kansas.

http://www.kansashistory.us/racing/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 08:17 am:

Maybe someone can figure out how the straight axle was attached.

No springs ??




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 08:21 am:

Rear looks like it might have a spring but it could be a brace!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Richmon on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 09:36 am:

Thanks Verne, I'll check it out!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 05:45 pm:

Fred,

I think the middle car was lowered with a “Z’d” frame – “ok” maybe it should be called a stacked with a plate frame as it doesn’t have a classic “Z-shape. I.e. the rear frame half where the spring is located is bolted to a rectangular plate that is bolted above the front 3/4 ths or so of the part of the frame that runs forward to the engine etc. It lowers the car like a “Z’d” frame but doesn’t require welding.





In addition to that it also appears to me that the rear axle has been turned over so the spring perches are on the bottom rather than the top of the axle. You will notice that the rear spring runs in front of and below the rear axle. Compare that to the photo of Clayton Paddison’s flipped rear axle on his 1926 roadster – the rear spring looks very very similar in shape. The photo below is from Clayton’s posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/83793.html





Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 06:37 pm:

Bob,

You might take a look here:
http://www.modelt.org/mtfcivb/showthread.php/795-Racing-in-Texas-a-pictorial-his tory-of-race-cars-and-tracks

And here:
http://www.modelt.org/mtfcivb/showthread.php/16-Authentic-original-speedster-pic tures


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Richmon on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 08:37 pm:

Royce, your second attachment has the picture! Derek Kiefer posted it back in 2013 and stated it was a race back in 1922, but states he doesn't know where it took place. This is the best lead I've had! I'm out of town, but will contact Derek next week. Thanks Royce, BTW YOU GOING TO HERSHEY?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 09:01 pm:

Probably the old track in Bennings, Md


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 09:32 pm:

I know I got that picture from a post on this forum around August or September of 2011.

I have been trying to find it without any luck so far.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 09:42 pm:

Those same images were posted by Garnet in September 06, 2011 at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/234002.html?1315668308
I think they are a better resolution or at least they show up better on my computer screen. But when Garnet was asked where he found them he replied “"do a search for "digital collections"” so he may not know where he found them.

Note at one time, Google had a feature where it would search for a photo and let you know other locations that had the same or similar photos.

Below is the higher resolution from that September 06, 2011 posting. I'm not sure why it appears so large -- but I didn't want to reduce the size.



And below contrast adjusted a little:



Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 09:51 pm:

Fred,

The higher resolution / quality photo clearly shows the middle T has a regular T front axle moved in front of the frame with the front spring attached behind the axle.



That could have been done with a Laurel lowering bracket. But to have the radiator that low on the axle, I believe they would have had to remove spring leaves also. Or using a method similar to what John Sizemore did at the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/25924.html?1174185965





Or Chris Becker’s Special at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/183714.html?1321105189 Note how his front axle and the front axle in the original old photo are in the approximate same relationship to the frame.



Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 09:59 pm:

Note Mike Walker ID'd the license plate as 1922 Virginia on car #2 (not shown above but at the thread posted by Garnet in September 06, 2011 at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/234002.html?1315668308

That would also make sense on why car #7 could have been photographed in front of the White House.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 10:08 pm:

Looks like a 1922 D.C. plate on the car far right of the first picture.

Thanks for finding that thread Hap, I've been driving myself crazy trying to find it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 10:43 pm:

You guys are amazing!

You can't help thinking that the the people before us were fantastic innovators.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 10:45 pm:

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/4702/lost-washington-benning-race-track /


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 10:53 pm:

Benning. MD. used for racing till mid 20s, sold demolished in 1928


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Friday, September 25, 2015 - 10:58 pm:

Glad they used those leather helmets and goggles...safety first!..:-)..Love it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, September 26, 2015 - 12:10 am:

Wow! A lot of great discussion today! I spent most of the day out working in the yard and just came back in to it.
I have spent a fair amount of time looking at both the race and the "Cootie" photos some time ago, but never made the connection myself with the number 7! That is incredible! Even more incredible that that car is one of "our own"! It is fantastic to have that sort of provenance with a surviving car. Be very proud of it Bob R!
As for the other race car's front and rear suspension? I had spent some time looking at my computer screen with a magnifying glass (am I the only crazy person doing that???) and had come to the same conclusions about the suspension of that car as shown now by others. And shown better than I could have done I might add.
Thank you all!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Richmon on Saturday, September 26, 2015 - 06:37 am:

WOW, you guys are great, looks like with everyone's help I could actually find the original picture and maybe so more history on the car! I found the car on eBay, it had come out of a big car collectors estate in Michigan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Saturday, September 26, 2015 - 07:57 am:

High detail cootie link
http://www.shorpy.com/node/13788?size=_original#caption


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Saturday, September 26, 2015 - 08:08 am:

Ed,
That Shorpy photo is nice! I like the set-up to move the brake lever back. Also the combination windshield/roll bar...or at least I guess that is what it is supposed to be...is neat. The flexible pipe for the exhaust. I didn't figure they had that back in the day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, September 26, 2015 - 08:45 am:

For Ed -- thank you for the link to Shorpy!

From that photo it appears that the rear spring on the Cootie was also attached below and in front of the rear axle:



I'm not sure if it is a stock rear spring or not? It looks a little different -- but it may be the angle of the photo or it may have been modified etc.



For Bob -- note that at the link Ed posted for the Benning Raceway ( http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/4702/lost-washington-benning-race-track / ) one of the posters there commented:

".....There's three different tracks captioned Benning in the LOC images! ...
by Andy on Apr 29, 2010 9:26 pm "

Where LOC is for the Library of Congress (LOC) photo archive.

Please keep us posted on what you discover about your car!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Saturday, October 10, 2015 - 05:37 pm:

Bob

Is this your Paco?




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Saturday, October 10, 2015 - 05:38 pm:




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Saturday, October 10, 2015 - 05:41 pm:




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 09:39 am:

Looks like the same car.

Bud Johnson of Austin MN owned Bob's car from the 90s up until his death a few years ago. His collection was sold on auction done by Yvette VanDerBrink in 2013.

Speedster briefly shown at 2:27 mark here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeWAlX4hSFc

I'm still kicking myself for not buying it when Bud was still alive. I knew him well, and he always tried to sell me the speedster when I was young and had no money at all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Richmon on Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 10:13 pm:

Hi Mark & Derek, yes this is my car! I have a few pictures from when Jack restored it, but not like the ones you posted. This is more exciting info about this cars history. Mark are those actual photos you have of the car or copies on paper? Thanks, Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Monday, October 12, 2015 - 03:23 am:

Bob

That was a package Jack sent when he was selling he car. He sold it and possibly bought it back shortly after. Jack's dad had a Paco (or speedster?) in the teens. Here are some photos courtesy of Jarvis Erickson. I have quite a few photos of your car with the different owners over he last 20 years. Nice car you have




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Monday, October 12, 2015 - 03:27 am:

This is another page of the package Jack sent to interested people.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Kuczynski on Monday, October 12, 2015 - 06:08 am:

I love the header on his letter...

"'T' Fords and other lesser cars." ;)

Very cool history and research. A good read to start the work week.

Thanks!

JK


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Richmon on Monday, October 12, 2015 - 07:16 am:

Mark, I met Jarvis last year at the Hershey car show, very interesting guy. He told me he knew Jack and was over in his garage when Jack was originally restoring the car. I've been trying to track the history of its ownership, but haven't gotten very far. Any chance you'd let the original package Jack sent you go? I'd love to have it to put with my documentation of the car!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Monday, October 12, 2015 - 03:20 pm:

I got on this late, but maybe some help.

1922 - the Washington Herald, Frederick Kopper Jr. Advertising overhead valve heads for Fords and Dodges


1923 - Richmond Times, VA State Fairgrounds, F. Kopper is second in a three mile race, just behind a Duesenberg and ahead of a Mercer:


1925 - Evening Star, Washington D.C., Kopper's Garage selling "Ford Racer-Overhead valves:"


Maybe......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Richmon on Monday, October 12, 2015 - 09:44 pm:

Rob, That's a fantastic lead! Thanks for posting, how did you come across that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Tuesday, October 13, 2015 - 09:48 am:

Bob,
A variety of google searches. Also, a newspaper archive search. It appears there may have been two men named "Frederick Kopper Jr." during this period. Also, the "Colonel F. Kopper" was the father (of one, if two different men), a civil war veteran.

One F. Kopper Jr. died under mysterious circumstances in 1927, after inheriting 1,500,000, at the age of 46. One appears to have been involved with steel (Kopper Coke). Again, I don't know if these were two different men or not.

Patent:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Richmon on Tuesday, October 13, 2015 - 08:00 pm:

Good Job Rob, the internet is only limited by your own imagination! Thanks for the help!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Richmon on Tuesday, October 13, 2015 - 09:30 pm:

Fellows, if you look back at the post that Hap Tucker posted of the race track on September 25th, notice the grand stands. They sure do look very similar to the Race poster I have of the Virginia State Fair grounds. Richmond Race Track


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Wednesday, October 21, 2015 - 05:18 pm:

Bob

Sorry for the late reply, been very busy. Jack only sent photocopies. If I still had them, I would give them too you, but I only have scans of them. I have sent you better copies of my scans.

Rob

Interesting history. Kopper most likely was selling Laurel Roof Heads made for Ford and Dodge.

Morton & Brett also made heads for ford & Dodge but I think that came later than 1922


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