Is there a quick way to tell the diff between a ford felloe and a Kelsey /hayes. Some of the threads show the different rims, but not the felloes.
If you have the tire off measure the tenons, Ford is 1/2" Kelsey/Hayes 5/8"
There isn't a simple black and white answer. For example at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels there is a letter to the Ford branches dated March 7, 1924 that includes the statement: ““The necessary changes have been made in the Kelsey wheel and rims also the Firestone and Cleveland rims so that with the exception of a few Kelsey wheels which are still to be shipped, we will have but one wheel and one rim for production, even though they are being shipped from three different sources. The felloe band on the Kelsey wheel has been changed so that it is exactly the same dimension as the Ford, Hayes, or Motor wheel and a car could be built with one wheel of each make. The rims have been changed to the ‘attached lug’ type and a car could be built using one rim of each Hayes, Kelsey, Motor Wheel, and Firestone.” So shortly after that Mar 7, 1924 date – any new wheels from any of the manufactures were interchangeable.
From the one photo you posted your felloe is NOT a typical Kelsey felloe. The typical Kelsey felloe has a raised slot next to each of the four lug areas for the Kelsey 88 loose lug to pull up tight against. Below is a photo of a common style of the Kelsey felloe showing the raised slot (you can slide a knife blade through that slot and it varies with some flat and some a little more curved or arched):
Photos by Hap below show Kelsey style rusty felloe (I believe the nice black felloe is one sytle of the Firestone/Cleveland/Ford for use with the 2845C or 2845D loose lug rims). Yes, I need to retake some of them.
Those style Kelsey felloes should be fitted with a Kelsey 88 rim and loose lugs (Note the early 1919 Kelsey demountables supplied on new Fords had a removable lug with a captive nut held inside the lug.)
Note from your single photo you appear to have the part number 2846C removable lug with the captive nut that was used with the Firestone and Cleveland and possibly other manufactures that used the 2845C rim. Below are photos of that 2846C removable lug with the captured nut:
Note the 2846C loose lug goes with the 2845C rim shown below and NOT the 2846C rim that is also in the photo.
If you would check to see if your felloes do or do not have a cup around the valve stem. That cup is for the locating lug of the 2845C and 2845D rims and keeps the rim from rotating on the felloe and prevents the valve stem on the rear wheels from being cut under hard braking or acceleration. Note according to the parts listing at the posting above both the 2845C and 2845D use the same wheel/felloe. But the 1919-1924 Kelsey 88 rim only uses the Kelsey felloe.
From the Jan 1924 Model T Ford service bulletins:
I need to quit for the night but for additional reading please see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/419518.html?1391576745
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Thank you for sharing. Minor comment, with outside suppliers you may sometimes have variations. And as long as the part functioned well Ford would probably not care that much as long as the cost was the same or lower. But from the Aug 13, 1923 Factory Drawing of the Kelsey felloe, shown on page 28-29 of the May-Jun 2001 "Model T Times" it shows 1/2 inch tennon on the Kelsey wheel.
There was also a note on the drawing that said "Stamp letter "K" 5/16 high next to valve hole" and apparently that was on the side you can still see when the rim is fitted. I have not seen many Kelsey felloes, and so I have not seen one like that. If someone has a photo showing that -- please send it or post it etc. And if many of the Kelsey felloes do not have that K - please let us know that also. Thank you.
And the drawing had been revised 11 times since it was first drawn May 23, 1919 so the size of the tennon may or may not have been different on some of those earlier or even later drawings.
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Henry, in my experience, with our Canadian sourced cars, which came with Kelsey loose lug rims, there is one easily spotted difference. The Kelsey felloe is designed for the rim to wedge on the outside rolled in edge of the felloe, held in place by the four bolts and loose lugs. The inside rolled edge of the felloe is the same width as the outside rolled edge.
On our 1925 models finally came with rims with fixed lugs. These are designed so that the rim wedges on the inside rolled edge of the felloe, the fixed lug standing a little off the outside face of the felloe. Accordingly, the inside rolled edge on the felloe is wider than the outside rolled in edge.
Hope this helps,
Allan from down under.
I haven't found the exact date of the merger, but Kelsey and Hayes were two separate companies until 1927. There was no such thing as Kelsey/Hayes until after the end of Model T production, or perhaps during the very tail end of it.
Here is a Hayes distinguishing feature.
There's a notch next to the bolt hole.
That notch accommodates the Hayes lug, which extends back across the bead as shown in the 1924 diagram posted above.