OK I know there is many opinions on the use of a water pumps on a T. I have them on both of my T's a 1915 and a 1923. I have heard I would get better cooling without them and had a little trouble with the one on my 15 so I am thinking about removing them. My question and looking for advice are they worthwhile or not. Leave them or remove them.
Just take it off and forget about it. You should cut the shaft in two so that it won't hurt another Model T in the future.
Here in Texas you rarely see water pumps on Model T's. It's too hot here to fool around with useless stuff.
To answer your question we need to know the condition of your radiators and water jackets. Sometimes a water pump is added because the cooling system has problems.
Having said that, IMHO you're better off removing them. Take them off and run your Ts for a while. You'll know soon enough if everything is working properly.
I had three T's, one had a pump, two didn't. Based on the advice on this forum, I removed the one that was on a 26 roadster. I noticed no difference in cooling and that was the only car with a motometer.
They will never correct a compromised cooling system. They're as worthless as a screen door on a submarine. As worthless as an air freshener in an outhouse! As worthless as t_ts on a bore hog! As worthless...
The only thing they were ever good for was separating a man and his money or as a wheel chock!
Just be sure that if you do remove the pump, check for a thermostat in the upper hose and remove it too.
A water pump is a very effective device for slinging grease and coolant around in your engine compartment.
Thanks for the advice removed the one on my 15 Roadster and did check for a thermostat none there. Little luck also found the inlet and outlet areas to be extremely clean no rust or buildup at all.
Hi Dick, I have never run a water pump on either of my cars. Looking at your car Saturday you appear to have a flat tube core in a very good looking radiator. John
In addition to what Steve said they also make a pretty fair wheel chock if you park on an incline.
I continue to be amused by the assumption that all water pumps have the same value. Either all work or none work. That is simply not true. I've tried a bunch of styles and most do nothing. A couple work well. I have been able to get by with two marginal original radiators using them.
Just this weekend I took one off my car that my dad restored 50 years ago. I don't like them. One more place to leak and I honestly believe they cause a restriction in the flow of coolant.
I'm with Richard. One certain answer, Yes/No, regarding waterpumps for every "T" and every situation is foolish. And to state "they will never correct a compromised cooling system" is completely misleading. The implication here is that it won't help. Ever. While it won't treat root cause of running hot, There are indeed some few instances that a cheap pump will save the $$$ for a new radiator if you don't have the $$$ to spend. It's true that removing a water pump doesn't always result in a hotter running "T", but sometimes it will. Nor will adding a water pump to a hot running "T" make always make it run cool, but sometimes it will.
That being said, waterpumps will sometimes leak, they will sometimes sling grease and they will sometimes break. A well known poster once postulated that $$$ spent once on a good radiator will result in far more fun and reliability than any other fix for overheating. That I can completely agree with.
Personally, I think they make wonderful "wall art" in the garage. With the holidays not too far off, one might make a great gag gift for your Model T friends...or enemies.
Last year I put a low head on my 1919 T speedster and removed the water pump I'd had on the car for 30 years. I drive the car to work every day. I'm running with the same radiator I used with the water pump [an old Peerless honeycomb] but it seems like I have to put water into the that radiator every morning.
After about ten minutes driving it's warmed up and always seems to dump about 3 quarts onto the ground through the overthrow tube .. usually when I make a sharp turn as I enter the parking lot. I have assumed that this is normal with no water pump and that it's found its correct level. Or ... maybe the Peerless radiator is not so great. :-)
I always add more water every morning because I don't want to run the risk of having too little water and overheating the engine. I can't see the tube ends due to the baffle on the Peerless radiator. Rather have it take a dump every day than get too hot.
There was one on my first T when I got it. One cool day (about 35-40 degrees F) we went on a tour in the mountains. When we took a break several T owners stood in front of their radiators to keep warm. My radiator was cold. It cooled too much with the water pump. Later it leaked and the last thing to go wrong was when the shaft bound up and the pulley turned the end of the shaft like a lathe. Anyway, I installed the original type water inlet and have had no overheating problem, but it now warms up much quicker in cold weather. Note here in So. California 35 or 40 is considered a cold day! I have 3 Model T's and none have water pumps. It does get close to 100 degrees F here and you need to go uphill to get to our house. No over heating problems.
Scott, you failed to explain how a waterpump can correct a compromised cooling system. Or for that matter explain how it's a misleading statement. To the best of my knowledge it's simply a waterpump. It might correct some of the symptoms of a compromised cooling system but there's no way it can correct a compromised cooling system.
I will soon find out if it gets hot or not soon as I can find some 1 1/2" 7/16" by 14 thread bolts to mount the water outlet to the engine. I think I know where I can find them. The reason for removing the one on the 15 is that Sat morning getting ready for outing started the 15 and noticed a leak in the pump that had not showed up before. Real crazy there was a pin hole in the bottom of the pump that I could barely stick a small sewing needle thru. Removed the pump drilled the hole out big enough to put a 4-40 bolt thru and a nut on the other side worked good. Inspected the inside of the pump Sun and it is not a rust problem seems it was a flaw in the casting that finally gave up. Want to thank every one for the advise.
Forgot to mention the other reason for removing it and that is from the advice from everyone it seems they are more trouble than they are worth and really do nothing good for the old T.
Don't forget that Henry put water pumps on the first Model T's. Why did he stop using them? I believe it was to save money not because they didn't work.
I have run across articles about the T's cooling. They point out that as the T's got heavier over the years Henry changed to flat tubes increased the radiator size for better cooling. In 26 he tried to save money again and used a 2 core radiator for a short time that caused overheating.
There are many factors to consider in cooling these engines that has been going on for a long time even when they were new. As a T ages its ability to efficiently cool itself decreases mainly because of the Radiator.
I said "While it won't treat root cause of running hot..." I did not say it would correct a compromised cooling system.
You said "They're as worthless as a screen door on a submarine". To the original poster who asked if they were worthwhile, I stand by my response that your statement is misleading. There are in fact, times that a water pump will increase the cooling capacity of a compromised system (saving big $$$ in the process). I didn't state that it would "fix" the cooling system. I think I was pretty clear that it wouldn't always work in all cases and that best reliability would be to fix the cause of the heating (probably a new radiator). If I was the original poster, I would find Richard's post and my post to be useful and factually correct.
My thinking seems to be different than the VAST majority of you. In addition to being a purist and feeling that a water pump is just not correct for a Model T, it is just plain NEAT that a Model T will cool without one! Thermosyphon is such an interesting phenomenon! I thoroughly enjoy pointing out to bystanders that it does NOT have a water pump and that the coolant still circulates. Not only that, its rate of circulation is dependent on how much cooling it needs. Is that not just neat as heck? Why would anyone want to deny themselves the pleasure of knowing their T cools without a water pump?
I am disappointed !
There were only 22 posts in 24 hours about water pumps this time
My car boiled over only once. It was when I had a water pump and it was a cold winter day. I switched to the correct, thermosyphon system. Now I can even drive in the grueling hot, Woodward Dream Cruise with no issues.
Cut that water pump up. Don't leave it lying around for future generations to find.
I suppose there are even stronger opinions about the thermostats that a couple of the vendors sell and recommend!?
Lets move on to some more interesting topics we have not discussed for a while like distributors, transmission bands, motor oil, rear end oil, wood spoke wheels, thrust washers, and coil testers.
But Scott, shouldn't the goal be to correct the compromised cooling system. The waterpump at best is a poor bandaid to relieve the symptoms of a sick cooling system.
Clean out the block, flush the radiator, learn how to recognize when running to lean or with too much spark advance can increase the engine running temperature. Understand the condition of your radiator, clean the carbon out of the combustion chambers.
My intent is to go to extremes to get people to understand a waterpump is at best a poor and in most cases unnecessary expense to correct the symptoms of a compromised cooling system. The focus when placed on correcting the root cause is usually less expensive then a treatment for the symptoms.
The person that keeps using bandaids to ease the symptoms of a compromised cooling system is simply prolonging the paying out of money necessary to correct that system. How many times is a touring group stopped on the side of the road while some penny pincher is scratching his head trying to figure out what the next bandaid has to be to get his car down the road? These old cars break down. There's no arguing that point. And we can't always foresee the purpose for the breakdowns. But when it breaks down because somebody is too cheap to correct the root cause of a failure, we can all suffer.
Now, as far as my statements in the beginning of my original post; those were put there simply to get a reaction to the fact that this is an often repeated topic that is never settled. I was trying to get people to understand the futility of going back every couple months and addressing a topic that this group of people will never be able to agree on. I failed to tell my audience I was making some "tongue in cheek" statements as an attempt to get some people to smile or to raise the blood pressure of the staunch supporters of, what I consider, a worthless piece of equipment. I apologize for being so callous but, obviously I achieved my goal.
So smile, have a cup of coffee, go tighten the seals and stop the leaks on your waterpumps, put a little grease in it and go for a drive on a beautiful Fall day. You deserve it. Here's to hoping we meet someday down the road.
I support your position as stated above, and myself, typically seek to get to root cause as well. It's served me well and I've passed lots of folks on tour who didn't get to root cause of an issue and can tell you that finishing is 'way more fun than being towed in (something I have not yet experienced, so must speak in the hypothetical! Though that day will come, I'm sure)
Cheers and safe touring
First off, as it's been said a million times here: a clean un-compromised system works perfectly. Period. My last T (23' Touring) had a pump on it installed by the former owner who claimed it cured his overheating in parades problem. (Who an I to argue ?). The car ran fine during the time I owned it so the pump stayed on. I do tend to not look for problems that don't exist though. Especially one's that'll end up costing me $ if I look hard enough.
Scott, by gosh, you are one patient guy! I knew I'd come around to your way of thinking.
Charlie B, out of sight, out of mind can be a smart way to go. I thought my transmission was awful noisy after the last rebuild. I took it down, found a few questionable things and made some improvements. At this point It really was a case of "if it ain't broke don't fix it". But, I'm still hoping I made a difference in the noise it was making. And, there's always that chance I missed something. Oh heck, now the paranoia is kicking in!
As pointed out,All water pumps are not the same.All model T;s are not the same,and very few run on roads like they did back in the day. Joe blow say's his T with a new flat tube never overheats but what about the round tube? If a T with a pump make's the owner happy should group's be formed to point fingers and say no no no?? If it's your model T do as you wish,[If your wife will let you]!! I wish i could have our 14 painted Red,but she who must be obeyed say's no!! Bud.
Just one guys opinion here. The newly pumps made don't work. The originals I've tried don't work either, be it the side mount or the top mount with two notable exceptions, the Climax brand and the Impeller brand. I don't know why and frankly don't care but buy all those I can find.
Richard, I'm not sure you'd want to tell people you're looking to buy a "Climax pump"
I had a climax once.
Good ones Dave and Erik!! Open to buy a couple more if anyone wants to do some business. ;^)
Did some one say A CLIMAX PUMP. How about this Godiva Fire Water Pump Coventry Climax Engine. A 4 cylinder twin-cam engine attached to a water pump.
By George that's quite a climax! I can't believe I'm going to post this.