220 is up for auction.
Looks like a good start for someone wanting to get into the hobby
I did not know you were a polygamist ...
And of course Kim Dobbins is listed in the ownership history ...
OK, I can say I bid on it!! Yep, outbid already (Whew, don't know where I'd find the $3K to pay for it! ) .
BUT, I can say I bid on 220!!!
Me too, although my bid was considerably higher it still didn't hit the reserve.
Any guesses on the final number ??
My guess is that it will not meet the reserve.
Climbing fast !!
Reserve has to in the $100k range ??
How many of these exist?
Egads, in the few minutes it was posted here, it went from no bids w/opening at $2K, and now is over $55K!
My guess is it will go for around $250K, but that is just a WAG on my part.
We could start a pool. . . .
I'm a newbie around here but even I have heard of this one. Maybe $250k isn't that far off.
Going to be interesting to watch. I would bet its going to turn into a my d**k is bigger than yours type of bidding contest.
2 new dogs in the fight !!
Shoulda' held on to that one, Kim!
Everyone should have a chance to meet & visit with Mr. Kim Dobbins.
It is a privilege to be sure ...
I'd like to know how much of that car is truly "original" versus "correct". Didn't know until reading the description that it was at one time a runabout.
Dan Looks pretty good to me. How easy was it going to be to make it just correct. Given the rarity its going to be very difficult to assemble one from the correct parts -Karl
Hope it stays in the US. It is an important part of America's history. Needs a prominent place at the Henry Ford.
Please pick up my red 1909 Model T in Oregon and deliver it to my home in NH.
The people that have it may not have received the message that it belongs to me but I am sure you can convince them to release it to you.
I was getting ready to bid on it and saw the
water pump" must have a cooling problem, probably cost too much to fix it, so guess Ill have to pass it up and look for a better one....
I'll bet that is one water pump Royce would not cut the shaft off?? Bud in Wheeler,Mi.
I will do just that .....
Will you answer my one phone call from jail ?
Jim -- It would be best if you do not call me directly but when you get a cake from NH "Do not eat it!" because it will contain all the power tools and Vaseline you will need to escape.
Once you get out I'll meet you in Canada and we can have a few Molson's.
Do not go to Mexico because Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman is still looking for you.
He is still upset that you "borrowed" his tunneling equipment for a few weeks.
Didn't the early T's have water pumps from the factory?
I dropped out of the bidding yesterday at $4500
Fred! If Jim has his own jar of Vaseline his roommates might not let him escape
Jon,Yup i was just kidding.There was a 09 water pump T at the OCF.I saw your car but i missed you.Bud from Wheeler,Mi.
I did not expect that one!!
"As we are told, by 1951, Ed Hausgen of St. Louis had acquired the car through his uncle from a dealership in Illinois. By that time the rear portion of the original Touring body had been transformed into a Runabout, with a gas tank and toolbox at the rear.
In 1966, Hausgen sold #220 to collector Ben Snider of Riverside, California. Ben located a correct 1909 rear body and seat for the car and it was restored to show condition by Al Vivian, a former employee of Bill Harrah. It was a meticulous, frame-off restoration of every component."
Jon, yes the early cars had water pumps. That pump is correct for the car. I was just being silly...
Bill and Cathy Bohlen of LaHabra owners of this years Stynoski winner car #394 should be very happy to see this one sell!
We need to write a novel ...
Or if I end up in Mexico - a telenova ...
That was my first thought as well ...
Mike, I sold 220 to Fred because I bought #314 from the imperial palace in Las Vegas. Even though 220 is a bit earlier, 314 was a very low mileage car that was in the family of the original ford dealer until the middle 1950's.I sold 220 to Fred because I knew he would take care if it. It's a great car and quite original. If I was in the market at this time for an early 1909 , this is the car I would buy.
Less than a day in, and the bidding has gone over $76K. If I sold everything I own? I couldn't make a down payment on that one.
Except for maybe that one painting I have? It is old, no idea who did it. Any appraisers out there?
The stuff dreams are made of.
"This is one of the earliest surviving Ford Model T’s in the world today."
Does anyone know of an earlier T than #220 surviving today?
I'm not in on the bidding but the 76,100 is not that much!Price a new F-250 crew cab with the diesel and everything else.Price some of the go fast 60's car's?? Bud in Wheeler,Mi.
Ref your question: Does anyone know of an earlier Model T Ford?
From the discussion Oldest Model T
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/74303.html?1228311520 Kim Dobbins posted:
on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 11:52 pm:
Here is some of the info that I have on some of the early T's.
#2 was restored by Don Hess, then sold to a dealer in PA, then sold someone in England.
#18 is a chassis that turned up on a farm in Slippery Rock, PA, then sold to someone in New York state.
#22 is a block only in Texas.
#77 is an engine only that belongs to Los Angeles County Museum.
#90 was restored by Bill Barth then sold to the Whitehead collection in MN, then sold to a collector in AZ.
#126 was built from a block that was found in Chicago holding up a garage door. It was built by John Stynoski. I think this car is somewhere in ca.
#131 is a former Harrahs car now in a collection in CA. This car just made an appearance at the Concoures DE Elegance car show in Palos Verdes, CA a couple on months ago.
#197 Don Hess?
#208 Hans Hapsburg, KS?
#220 is probable the most famous of the early Fords.It was bought off a form in MO. by Eddie Hausgen in the early 50's, then sold to and restored by Ben Snyder, Riverside, CA. then sold to Harrahs auto collection, Reno,NV. Sold at auction in 1985 to myself. It now resides in a very nice home in OR. Its hard to say which one is the earliest. I guess It depends on definition of a restored car. As Herb said, "that's all I have to say about that"
++++ Hap again +++++
Note from Don Watson's Friday, October 02, 2015 - 07:54 pm: post above it sounds like engine #22 has probably been mated with a chassis etc.
Some additional information and photos:
Model T touring #90 was auctioned Jan 2015 see: http://www.barrett-jackson.com/Archive/Event/Item/1908-FORD-MODEL-T-TOURING-TIN- LIZZY-178648 And Russ Furstnow at: http://www.modelt.org/mtfcivb/showthread.php/885-Observations-of-the-Barrett-Jac kson-Auction commented on Bill Barth the man who restored #90. Shared it was an original car with the body remade using the original hardware. Noted that for many wooden bodied cars the body has to be reproduced unless it was stored in a dry location.
Number 131 is discussed at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/109228.html?1255192769
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(Message edited by Hap_tucker on October 02, 2015)
Hap - that was a great run down. Thank you for taking the time to post that.
Hap, Thanks for the info. I was unaware of that many early Ts. I would like to see something about #2. That's unreal to think #2 is still around. Do you know what the earliest number that Ford has in their collections. ??? Thanks again
#2 was at the OCF maybe 5 or 6 years ago! Bud.
Thanks Hap, as always.
I'm not one of them, but there are Forum members who don't need to get rid of house, kids, and wife to buy this car. They don't have to go to the bank, either. They just gather up the bills and spare change that they have lying around and call the seller up. Unfortunately, I haven't won any lotteries.
Ok so #90 sold in January for $121,000 and it looked pretty good in the pictures from the auction. Other than its storied past and documented lineage is there anything that might make #220 worth more?
#220 is better in every possible way. Not perfect, but very, very good.
Thanks it seems like it is
Thoughts on whether the radiator original? Do they even make new ones with that kind of Ford script?
Thank you for trusting me with an invaluable piece of history - even if it is just Fantasy.
If I was the current custodian (I almost said owner) I would make sure people could see it and understand it's significance.
It would not disappear into a private museum
It would be seen going to ice cream shops with my granddaughters on board and coffee shops with my wife and frIends.
It would show up at cars shows (kids would be able to sit in it and touch it) and be in parades with American flags.
It is an honor
Brassworks appears to list the 1909-1910 radiators and has a section on the early 1 through 2500 water pump cars see: http://www.thebrassworks.net/shop/index.php?cPath=11_17 and read their comments on the earlier radiators. Brassworks also offers a reproduction of the style that has an outer shell see pages 66 of Bruce’s book. From the photo on page 66 in Bruce’s book that states, “Early cars had radiators with a relatively smooth design, as did this one found on car 220.” And the same photo in the Jan – Feb 1967 “Vintage Ford” on page 20 that added the following details:
“The edges of the radiator are
smoothly curved and of one-piece construction,
in appearance. This particular radiator differs
from the other examples we have seen, in being
all one piece; that is the core, tanks and outer
shell are one assembly, similar to the later brass
radiators used until 1916. All other early styles
that we have seen were of the separate core and
tank type, with a brass shell to “dress them up.”
Photo below form page 20 of Jan-Feb 1967 “Vintage Ford” used by permission. [Same photo is on the lower left side of Bruce McCalley’s book “Model T Ford.”]
If you compare that photo to the photo of the radiator on Model T Ford #220 in the photos on e-bay – you will notice they do not appear to be of the same top tank construction. Based on that as well as the great condition of the radiator on e-bay – I suspect but I do NOT know that it is a reproduction radiator. Note the original radiator most likely would not cool nearly as well as a reproduction or a re-cored radiator. So that is not necessarily a negative item – especially if you wanted to drive the car occasionally and not just display the car.
(Side note the first water pump engine was actually 2,448 and the car with that engine was listed as manufactured on Apr 22, 1909 – ref page 480 of Bruce McCalley’s (R.I.P.) book “Model T Ford” but that topic would be for a different thread).
Note, Brassworks will also restore a radiator assuming the parts that are supplied are serviceable see: http://www.thebrassworks.net/restorations.html
The two-lever two-pedal Model T Touring on display at “The Henry Ford” is number 839. It is on the cover of the red “Model T Ford Restoration Handbook” by Leslie R. Henry.
See the posting Lee Crenshaw on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 08:47 pm: at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/35743.html for an interesting story of how #839 impacted Lee life from the beginning of Lee’s life. That is the car that Ford Motor Company restored and sent down the assembly line again in 1959 for the 50th anniversary of the Model T Ford.
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Hap, I think you are correct about the radiator on 220. Ben probably had the original rebuilt. As I remember there is a copper tag that says" 220" soldered to the back of the top tank. It's just to nice to be completely original. I think the farthest I ever drove 220 was about 2 miles down to Larry Smiths house for a local T club gathering. Last time I drove it was into Fred's trailer for the trip to Portland. I don't think it has been run since that day. It's a different experience driving a 2 pedal car. Lots more room for your feet! I hope it stays in the states, it's a first class car.
Growing up in Michigan and liking brass T as a little guy Jack Skaff took a liking to me and I remember hearing him talk about a two pedal roadster or the remains of one. Do any two pedal roadsters remain? I know of a 3 pedal water pump car and several 3 pedal water pump touring cars including my dads but never have seen an example of a two pedal roadster.
I follow this threat with interest and am in awe about this car and can't wait to see the final bid. I followed Bill Barths restoration of serial number 90 and every time I saw it in person I couldn't take my eyes off it either. We own serial number 2151 which was a former Harrah car also.
Mark, according to this thread: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/483352.html?1412791768
roadsters and runabouts were announced for spring delivery - and by spring production was changed to three pedals and one lever. Though, a few two levers were made so it's technically possible someone survives but not likely. #220 looked like a runabout when Ed Hausgen bought it in 1951, maybe it was that car your friend was referring to?
Keep your dirty fingers off my vehicle!
I hope that whoever get it dosen't hide it away
Mark & Roger,
Ref the question about surviving 2 lever 2 pedal roadsters -- I am not aware of any (but I have very little information about 2 lever 2 pedal Ts and there is always more to discover).
Note in Trent's Early Ford data base (available on the CD that accompanies "Pate's Early Ford Automobile Encyclopedia" and also Bruce McCalley's (R.I.P.) CDs "Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia" and hard copy at the Benson Ford Archives) Trent has 3 roadsters listed:
#458 Shipped Jan 16, 1909 to San Francisco, CA
#810 Shipped Feb 13, 1909 to Ford of Canada
#829 Shipped Feb 16, 1909 to Baltimore, MD
In the introduction to his data base he shares that his listing captures a little less than approximately 1/4 of the serial numbers that were shipped. So there could have been approximately 9 other Roadsters shipped during the same time period based on that ratio -- or maybe only 1 or 2 more shipped. The records are incomplete. Number 410 would most likely have been a 2-lever 2-pedal. #810 and #829 may or may not have been a 2-lever 2-pedal -- as #839 was a 2-lever 2-pedal touring (the red touring on display at the Henry Ford). Unfortunately the #2 through #1,118 shipping documents are not available. And from the photo of the NY auto show we know there was one additional 2-lever 2-pedal Roadster on display Jan 1, 1909.
So as Roger pointed out -- there were not many 2-lever 2-pedal roadsters to begin with.
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Mark, there is only one roadster that I have record of. It's #432 and is listed in the 1954,61,62 and 1965 HCCA register as being owned by Albert and Constance Hood in Carmel by the sea, CA. I've never heard any other information about this car. There was also a guy by the name of Spenser Sol from Kansas that claimed to have access to a 2 pedal roadster that was his grandfathers car. I asked his for some pictures and any more info that he could provide, but never heard from him again.
I was teasing Heather this afternoon about bidding now that it has reached $85000. Cool as ever she said:
"If I were a rich doctors wife, I'd buy it for you as Christmas present".....
Just a dumb engineer....
Tony My wife is a doctors wife but we can't afford it ! Karl
Owning antique Ford such as an early model two lever two pedal is the ultimate experience. To have a piece of history that you can look at and share with your friends and club members.
In preparing # 394 for the Stynoski award was quite the under taking. I am not a car show judging type guy. After being convinced, I proceed to go forward with this venture. Not only does the car have to look good, and be original, it must run and be driven. Being the car had not ran for many years it was process in doing so. The five ball carburetor had to be overhauled once again. Thanks to Kim Dobbins who lives a few adjacent towns away, gave me some pointers on gaskets. In the history of owners, Kim had owned the car before selling it to Bob Fruehe.
Those of you who have been to Branson, Mo., I do not think there is a flat road anywhere. Being one of the requirements for the award, the car has to be driven. Being so protective of this piece of history, I did not want to drive it on the street filled with bumper to bumper traffic. There was closed down amusement park parking lot in which the club used to park the trailers. I drove the car around the perimeter of the lot many times giving rides to those who wanted. I believe the best time in this endeavor was getting to drive a piece of Ford history around with out being afraid of being hit by some unknown not knowing what significance the car has.
The early cars are not my forte', but is the frame and undercarriage supposed to be body color?
Roger is correct for the 1909 Model Ts and it is debatable when Ford stopped painting the Model T chassis body color and switched to black. Ref MTFCI Judging Guidelines 6th Edition 1909 section item 110 Chassis pained body color. After Jul chassis painted black. But the same item 110 under 1910 has listed "Painted black or possibly body color."
I personally like Bruce's (R.I.P.) quote at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1911.htm under the 1911 cars that says, "Painted body color or black, depending on who you believe (no available records indicate the color but black is the preferred choice)."
Concerning what you mean by the early Ford Cars -- if you stop at the Model T Ford -- the answer Roger gave is what you wanted. If you include the earlier cars some chassis were painted body color (most 1907 Model R Runabouts, most 1908 Model S Roadsters), some were painted a contrasting color (Most Model S Runabouts had a dark green body with cream running gear). And near the end of the N,R,S,&SR production they were using up the parts so there are photos of the light color running gear on both the Model N Runabout and Model S Runabouts in the photo of the cars in the run-up yard at Piquette. And if you go even earlier -- they also varied by car. A short summary is available at: http://www.earlyfordregistry.com/# click on the tab “Early Ford Facts” on the left side of the menu bar and then “Models.” Select the model you want to know about. Note the first 1903-04 Model As the chassis was the same as the body and the 1904 Model B it was similar to the 1908 Model S Runabout with green body and cream running gear etc.
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Is #131 now in California? It had been in New Jersey in recent years.
No, 131 left California for New Jersey several years ago. The list a "reposted" was by Kim Dobbins and was originally posted on the thread:
From the discussion Oldest Model T
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/74303.html?1228311520 Kim Dobbins posted: on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 11:52 pm:
Number 131 was at Hershey in 2009 see the thread at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/109228.html?1255192769
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Thanks for the info Hap! Hope that the rain did you no damage.
#904 has its entire complete original body. One way you can spot a later Model T touring body is by the position of the rear door handles, and the latches themselves. The first 3000 or so cars had this feature. Look at the door handle position on the original #904 body pictured below. Then compare to pictures of #220 and #131.
Who is the 904 body made by?
Hi Royce: Can you expand a little more on the feature you are referencing that applied to the first 3000 or so cars? It looks like the handle is horizontal on #904 and vertical on cars #131 & #220.
Looks like a couple of inches difference in height to me!
No idea. We don't have the build sheet for 904 and there are no markings. I believe Wilson or Beaudette (Pontiac) would be the likely candidates.
The door handles can be left in the single latch position or rotated another 90 degrees to the locked position. This is common to all of the 1909 - 1912 Model T body styles that have exterior handles.
On this original 904 early body the handles are about 4" lower on the door than they are on later bodies. The rear half of #220 is an original body but it came from a later car.
Not sure what the story is on 131, I don't know the history of that one.
Thank you, Royce. My 31XX 1909 is an original Beaudette aluminum skinned body and the handles are in the same location as that shown on #220.
pictured is an original door from a 2 lever body,(red) the green door is from production 1909-10 body. You can see the difference in the door handle placement. The third picture shows the 2 lever door lock and the production 1909-10 door lock.
(Message edited by adminchris on October 11, 2015)
Some period photos of near - new two lever Model T's:
Which door locks does #220 have today? Am
I correct that these unique locks would be paired with an equally unique striker plate for the latch pillar? Is the red door shown an aluminum skin door?
220 has the later door latches and yes the early latch takes a different striker. The red door is wood and from #314.
Here are some pictures of the correct low mount door striker, catch and square internal corner door hinges from, I Am told, Body #322? I no longer own them. I believe the hinges were still used after the water pump models. There was a pencil scrubbing of the body plate with this number somewhere in existence. I don't have a copy though
some slightly better pics
Do you known if there are quality reproductions of these parts to be had? Also, is the later door handle the same for these earlier locks?
Sorry Scott, cant help you there with an leads.
So what is original on #220? Thanks James
I would say all off the chassis & most of the body. But really, I don't know for certain.
At least this much...
: ^ )
Thank you Keith