Fender Question

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Fender Question
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, October 03, 2015 - 11:08 am:

Which front fenders would be correct for my '25 coupe? The so called "commercial" fenders, or the ones with the two beads, one that goes under the apron and the other one that matches the apron? Both have the lip that matches the radiator apron on the front. Or, does it matter? Thanks in advance. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, October 03, 2015 - 11:22 am:

The later design with the wide bead. (so-called commercial).

And the rear fenders on a '25 closed car would be the later design which have a bit of a 'duck tail' on the end.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, October 03, 2015 - 11:25 am:

Thanks Dan. So what are the other style front fenders correct for, '24? Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Sims--Reed City,Mich. on Saturday, October 03, 2015 - 11:40 am:

The correct rear fenders for your coupe should have a full skirt on the back side. They fasten under the body sill.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, October 03, 2015 - 11:57 am:

The rear fenders are fine. The fronts have been changed for earlier ones sometime in the past. It also had a low radiator cobbled up on it with the hood cut down to fit. I'd say someone had a bit of an accident with it. Everything else is pretty much original, even the 85 year old grease and oil underneath it. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Saturday, October 03, 2015 - 12:07 pm:

David, I have original fenders on my 24 Fordor and they have the two beads .

Rick.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, October 03, 2015 - 05:42 pm:

I have a late 24 Coupe (September) and it has the so called commercial fenders on it.

David S. my 24 Coupe was sort of cobbled together over the years by my Grandfather. It had 17-25 Touring rear fenders which surprisingly fit pretty well. He also installed a homemade trailer hitch on it and 28 Model A wheels as time went by. He bought it in 1942.
I inherited it in 1954 when I was about 10 years old when he died.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Rootlieb on Saturday, October 03, 2015 - 08:47 pm:

My experience has been that by 1925, tooling was already underway for the 1926 style- new and improved models. My guess is that at some point orders were given to use up existing supplies of fenders as no new runs were going to be produced. The result was that a great number of 1925 cars had commercial front fenders from the factories. I have seen and owned many of these cars that were equipped this way. So, technically commercial or passenger front fenders are correct.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, October 03, 2015 - 09:17 pm:

David,

The Model T Ford Club International Judging Guidelines 6th edition say either style front fender could have been used in the 1925 model year. Ref item 130 Fenders in the 1925 section.

My personal theory is the later in the 1925 model year the more likely the car would have had the bead that went under the splash apron - but I do not have any documentation to back up that theory (guess). I would think that the record of change cards and/or the factory drawing for the fenders would clarify the earliest it could have occurred. And of course Ford would have used up existing stocks of the previous style fender.

If you look on page 341 of Bruce's book he comments, "During late 1924 (1925) production the fender beading was modified and now ran under the splash apron.

And on page 338 he has a Ford publicity shot of the closed cars that was taken Nov 2, 1924. He comments that all of them have the front fender bead running under the splash apron rather than outside of it. He also commented that they also had the wider fenders at the rear of all those cars.

There are some photos and comments on the replacement 1917-1923 fenders without the lip that were produced with the bead running under the splash apron at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/529038.html?1427642038 That also has an excellent photo of a 1924 that was being compared to a 1923 that shows for that 1924 the bead was still outside of the splash apron.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, October 03, 2015 - 11:28 pm:

Thanks for all of the info guys, it is very much appreciated. I have a nice pair of fenders with the bead under the apron. They're not perfect, so they should fit right in with the rest of the car. Again, many thanks. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Sosnoski on Sunday, October 04, 2015 - 04:28 pm:

There are no "commercial" fenders. The fenders used up through Dec. 16, 1924 on the cars and TT trucks had the bead running outside the splash apron. On that date they changed the bead to run under the splash apron (the so called commercial fenders). For the 1926 model year they changed the fender design for the cars, but they continued to use the 1925 style fender on the TT trucks.

Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Skille on Sunday, October 04, 2015 - 04:57 pm:

I have an unrestored 1925 roadster #10,705590 that was built oct. 27th 1924 that has (the so called commercal fenders) on it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, October 05, 2015 - 12:05 am:

Thanks Dave. I thought it was something like that, but I couldn't remember just when the changes were. Did you ever get your book finished? I'd like to get one if or when they are available. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, October 05, 2015 - 11:12 am:

Dave Sosnoski,

Like Dave Stroud commented -- I hope your book is going well and yes, please let us know when it becomes available.

Also, I did a search for the “Dec 16, 1924 fender” and located your earlier thread at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/73572.html?1227816423 where you describe that the fender bead location was annotated as moved behind the splash apron on the Record of Change Card and the entry was dated Dec 16, 1924.

We know that either style fender with the lip on the front to match the radiator apron would fit and function fine. We also know that to put the new style fender into full production would have taken a little bit of time. And we believe that Ford would have used up the stock of existing fenders with the bead going outside of the splash apron. I suspect there would have been several months of over lap when both styles were being used at various assembly plants. Note also that 6 of those fenders with the bead running under the splash apron appeared on all three of the closed cars in the Nov 2, 1924 dated Ford photograph shown on page 338 of Bruce’s Book.

Additionally there were several posting about folks having one fender of each style. Has anyone found an old photograph of a new 1925 Ford that had both style fenders (one side with the bead running outside the splash apron and the other side with the bead running inside the splash apron)?

Again, thank you David for adding that information from the Record of Change Card. And please keep us posted on the availability of your book. Some of us who do not own a 1924-25 coupe may have to go out an purchase one after reading your book.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren F Rollins on Monday, October 05, 2015 - 01:38 pm:

I had this problem of two different fenders on my first Model T, a Dec 1924 production car that I purchased back in the early 60s. When I decided on a repaint I wanted it to be correct so I started looking for a matching fender, didn't matter which side as long as they matched.
Back then resources were not like today so research involved lots of footwork with no solid documented answers. Here is what I found: two different 1925 tourings with mis-matched fenders same as mine, one was an AACA Nationaal First winner, the other was found in a South Alabama barn ,this T, I was told was purchased new by a family member. To further "muddy the stream", I found a NOS fender with the wide apron but no front radiator trim apron. Confusing? I matched my fenders with the wide type and painted. A few years later I joined MTFCA, still wondering about the matter, I wrote our expert Bruce McCalley for his input. He published my letter with a basis reply that he didn't know but one of the reasons for the Club's existence was the find the answers to questions like mine. Over the years I owned and sold a 25 roadster along with the aforementioned touring both with wide apron fenders. Fast forward twenty years or so, I was reading the 1925 service manual(T1) and while there I found mention of Ford changing the attachment point where it bolts to the running board. This change was made August 1924 and was only mentioned as stamping a raised place at the holes to eliminate a fender washer. Was this when the fender apron was changed? I think so. A friend had a stack of used fenders in his pile and he checked and all fenders checked of both kinds either had or didn't have the stamped dimple in line with the apron type. Also I believe he had one without the radiator trim with the wide top and dimples My conclusion is that there is no such thing as a Commercial fender only 1925 fenders that continued to be used on TTs to the end of production. The early type with the wide apron and no radiator apron trim are Ford replacements. Check your rust pile . I am interested in this old mystery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, October 05, 2015 - 04:04 pm:

Warren,

I agree with you that Ford USA did not produce a commercial fender just for use on the Ton Trucks. Why would he do that?

At http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/26291.html?1174249134 Bruce McCalley (R.I.P.) posted:

By Bruce McCalley on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 08:43 am:
What are "commercial" fenders? If these are the ones where the inside bead runs under the splash apron they are standard Ford fenders that were used from late 1924 on all cars and trucks and on trucks after the "improved" Fords of 1926-7.
Bruce

By Bruce McCalley on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 03:44 pm:
"Commercial" fenders were the only front fenders Ford made after late 1924 (1925 models). They were made with and without the front "skirts" which were used beginning with the 1924 (high radiator) models. These fenders were used on both trucks and passenger cars until the advent of the 1926 model passenger cars. Like so many other things about the Model T, this one is hard to kill.
This fender style gave a more massive appearance than did the previous design and that is why they appeared.
________________________________________

And from Bruce's CD he has:

at Bruce's CD where he shared:

"In late 1924 (1925 models) the fenders were redesigned so
that now the inner top bead follows the inside edge of the
fender and now runs under the splash apron. This type was
also made without the lip at the front for use as a
replacement for the earlier style fenders. It continued in use
on the one ton trucks through 1927."



+++++++ Hap again +++++++

If you can scan a post the information from the 1925 Service Manual that would be great. Or if you would please confirm it is NOT the "improved car" fenders that are shown in the later Service Manual sold by the vendors (T1).

Note sometime today I saw some great photos of the raised portions of the fenders that were raised so the washers were no longer needed. But I can't seem to find it at the moment.

I'm sure that Dave Sosnoski's change card data would contain the date the holes were requested to be stamped raised rather than flat. If he doesn't see this we should send him a Private Message (PM) and ask.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren F Rollins on Monday, October 05, 2015 - 05:27 pm:

Hap,I lent my book out and it never returned. It is Model T Ford Service. The book Ford published for the backyard mechanic. It is NOT the improved 26-27 fender. My letter and Bruce's reply appears in Vol 5 Number 1(1970) on page 45.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, October 05, 2015 - 09:04 pm:

Warren,

Thank you for the update. A quick summary of some of the evolution:

1. In Vol 4 Number 1 (Jan-Feb 1970) "Vintage Ford" on page 45 you [Warren] shared:

"... concerning a statement which was made regarding
front fenders in your series on the ‘23-25 Ford,
in which you stated that there was a commercial
or truck fender and an automobile fender. YOU
further stated that these “truck” fenders were
incorrect for any passenger car. I beg to differ with
you on this point as these “truck” fenders appeared
on automobiles during this period - and not
necessarily in pairs. The Model T Truck also
appeared with “automobile” fenders."

Bruce responded back, "Perhaps the major reason we decided to publish
this magazine was to evoke comment. So far as we
could determine, no one had ever come out with
any publication which would attempt to set down
some ideas, build on them, and come up with what
might be the true story. Across the country, there
must be many people who can contribute to the
fragmentary story of the Model T Ford. To date,
we have made just a start. It is up to those people to fill us in...
In the 1923-5 article, we did not mean to be
emphatic regarding these fenders. In fact, we said
“it is believed...etc. ” Having no proof, one way or the other,
we stated the case as it appeared to
be according to the best information available.
We still don’t have the REAL story on the subject,
But, thanks to your letter, we may be on the
road to the “Gospel”. Let’s hope so.

2. With the passing of time and additional data collected, on page 29 of the Mar-Apr 1998 “Vintage Ford” in the article about the 1925 "Loss Leader" touring with an engine serial number of 11,416,254 for and engine log entry date of Mar 21, 1925 Bruce McCalley shared:

"As noted earlier, the front fenders were redesigned in late 1924 with the bead on the top
surface now running under the splash apron
instead of around it. This simple change gave the
fender a more massive appearance even though
the overall size was the same as the previous
design. Interestingly, Ford made this style
without the bib in the front for use as a
replacement on the 1917 to 1923 cars. Often
referred to as “truck fenders,” this style is typical of all 1925 passenger cars and all 1925 to 1927 trucks.

So Bruce agrees with you concerning the bead on the fenders. I still wonder how much over lap there was when both styles were used (around the apron and under the splash apron)? But I still have not located the thread about the holes being changed so a washer was no longer needed. I saw it, but I don't recall where.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren F Rollins on Monday, October 05, 2015 - 10:10 pm:

The washer information is contained where Model T Ford Service tells the owner about replacing the front fenders. If my recollection is correct this book removes and assembles all major components on a 1925 touring car. Wish I could supply the page.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Monday, October 05, 2015 - 11:31 pm:

A few years ago I saw a pair of fenders at a swap meet. The only T parts the guy had and I told him they weren't a pair because one had the bead that went under the splash apron and the other was the other style. He told me they were different because one was a right and one was a left. Ford might have used up all the parts he had, but I don't think he would put non-matching fenders on the same car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, October 06, 2015 - 12:48 am:

It depends on how the production line was set up; if right fenders were stacked on the right side of the line and left fenders on the left side, it is quite possible the different fenders would appear on the same car, depending on when supplies ran out.
Remember, they were building transportation vehicles, not prestige automobiles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Tuesday, October 06, 2015 - 02:20 am:

I also think that it would be hard to say what the branch assembly plants ended up with from the factory. There may well have been even more of the mismatched combinations from them. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Tuesday, October 06, 2015 - 06:34 am:

My april 24 tudor has the so called commercial fenders. They are original to the car. That's all I know about that. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Tuesday, October 06, 2015 - 02:20 pm:

Here are pictures of the two different front fenders for 24/25, the painted fender part #244 is called a passenger fender, the unpainted one is #256 and is called a commercial fender in the catalogs, right or wrong this is what they are called.

fenders


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, October 06, 2015 - 03:51 pm:

Well, I don't know which "catalogs" you are referring to, but the "commercial designation has been proven to be incorrect. It could be they were identified as such AFTER the "improved model" fenders came out in '26, as the TT continued to use the earlier fender.
This "Commercial" designation is one of the many mis-information bits from earlier in the hobby when good, correct information was scarce. Trying to get this corrected has proven to be nearly futile!
Why is this important? Well, as time goes on, the first-hand knowledge folks are no longer with us, and some of us are just anal-attentive about details! :-)
BTW, as far as I know, the right fender is 24, the left one is 25. My unrestored May 25 roadster has the ones on the left.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Curtis...Atlanta,Ga on Tuesday, October 06, 2015 - 04:34 pm:

My unrestored March 1924 Coupe has one of each style front fenders. I always assumed that at some point a replacement was installed, and nobody noticed the difference. I had no idea that it could very well have been assembled that way. You always learn something new about these old girls!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood -Long Beach, California on Tuesday, October 06, 2015 - 05:24 pm:

My '23 (maybe '24) Fordor has one of each, and there is a '24 Touring in our club with one of each, and I have noticed several others at gatherings with one of each. My '25 Coupe has two with the bead under the splash apron.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Tuesday, October 06, 2015 - 05:58 pm:

My 24 Fordor has the #244 fenders.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 02:33 am:

I think maybe the first step in getting rid of the "commercial" fender "old wives' tail" would be to get the vendors to stop listing them that way. I know that I bought in to this myth for many, many years because that's the way they are listed. I know it won't be easy, but it needs to be done. Kind of like the "early" '23 and "late" '23 myth. JMHO. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 05:05 am:

Rick Goelz, I'm a bit confused. If you are referring to the fender on the left as the painted fender, I think that is the so called "commercial" fender. The one on the right, which appears to be in primer, is the "passenger fender". At least that is what I understand, unless the fender on the left is not painted. From here, it appears to be, at least it is shinier than the other one. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 09:26 am:

That has me confused too. The one on the right is in primer, and the left one is shiny. Maybe it's shiny bare metal instead of paint?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 10:22 am:

The one on the right is in primer and in Lang's catalog it is a 17/23 passenger fender, the one on the left is bare metal and is a 24/25 commercial fender, the same information is shown in Rootliebs catalog.i was trying to match a fender that I already had. There is also a 24/25 passenger fender that the bead is different. Don't blame me I can only go by the catalogs just like the rest of you.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 02:43 pm:

Rick, it's just that the bare metal fender looks like it is painted black in the picture. That's what was confusing us. Dave


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