I am very angry over new seats any help would be appreciated. I do not know where the problem lies.
I could have measured wrong. But they tell me they made the seats by specs.
I had the springs made by vendor #1. I had the leather seats made by vendor #2. (both vendors are popular and good and I am not saying they did anything wrong.)
The front seat springs to the 12 touring are 3 1/2" high all the way around. The leather seats made are 3" in the front and 2 1/2" in the rear.
So far I have taken out most of the batting around the perimeter and I still cannot get the leather over the spring without a ridiculous amount of squashing compression of the spring in the rear.
I am putting them on now but I bought them months ago to spread out the cost. If I remember correctly(??) I think he said the seats are premade for a 13 according to Ford specs, not necessarily to the my spring size.
Any thoughts on what is correct before I call and ask what can be done about this.
Thank you in advance for your thoughts and suggestions.
If it's just a height problem, then one should be able to sew some additional material along the sides and back to make up the difference. This wouldn't be visible with seat cushions installed.
Pictures would help determine the problem.
Other than height, do they fit?
I can't help regarding which is correct, but one way out of the predicament would be to make a frame with some wood and all-thread to compress the spring to the desired height.
Then, wire the spring down in the compressed position using music wire or coat hanger wire. The spring will then stay at the desired height when removed from the press and you can proceed with the installation of the upholstery kit.
Personally, I would rather have full padding on a compressed spring set rather than very thin or no padding on a taller spring set.
Hope this helps.
Sorry, I can't help you with the proper dimensions for a '12 seat. But..........
Elizabeth at Classtque installed a cover on my '21 seat bottom cushion at Chickasha. She had some boards and all-thread rods which she used to compress the spring to the proper size. She installed the padding, then the cover, then the compressing apparatus. Then she tightened it down and attached the cover all around the bottom.
Just wondering if you have enough compression on the seats. The ones I have done require a lot of compression so the seat ends up firm. The back side is normally compressed more to give the person sitting in it more support on the back of their legs so it is more comfortable...
I was going to say one bit or the other might be wrong but after reading about compressing the springs and remembering my professional upholster Father-In-Law doing something very similar when doing seats I now believe the compression guys are right. You need more info on how to do it correctly.
This thread shows the use of a seat spring compressor:
Thanks guys, I think I am going to just make a compressor like the one on the discussion Mark shared and live with it as a very compressed seat.
I had the same problem on my 13 roadster when I restored it 30 years ago. It appears that the problem has never been fixed, The new later Ford cushion spring was about an inch taller than those cushions used with a horse hair stuffed backrest.Mine were attached to a plywood backing and tied before being covered by my upholsterer. I have never been happy with this arrangement but live with it.
I made a seat spring compressor similar to the one used by classtique. In the instruction sheet they provide it shows whats needed to make one.
I watched them using one at Chickasha and it is necessary to use to get the upholstery to fit correctly.
I believe their website shows using one during upholstery installation.
The seat spring height can easily be reduced by compressing each spring coil while heating the bottom of the spring coil with a welding torch to kill the spring temper in that area. It goes very fast. Only heat the bottom part that will then lay flat against the bottom of the spring.
I like to install the spring assembly to a 1/2 inch plywood base to keep the cushion flat. I drill holes in the base to lighten it a bit and relieve the bottom where it touches the seat braces so it lies flat. The wood base also makes it easy for tacking the upholstery side panels in place.
Some pictures would be helpful.
Are you attaching it the way 1912 seats were constructed? With the cardboard bottom covered with Leatherette?
As David suggests, I, too, would be more inclined to add more leatherette to the back skirt of the cushion. The bottom buttons on the seat back should be right at the height of the seat cushion. If you compress the spring, those buttons will look too high.
Did you stuff with horsehair, or foam?
Here is an original 1912 front seat:
This is a Fisher bodied car, so your upholstery diamonds may be different.
Who was the manufacturer of your body?
: ^ )
Well, learn something every other day, it seems. I've done a lot of upholstery work, though not much on T's, and that's the first time I ever saw or heard of a spring compressor (as shown in the Ireland trip link)running the entire length of a cushion.
Can't imagine Henry did it that way, but maybe so.....
I don't believe Ford used spring compressors. Because I don't believe Ford did early upholstery.
When studying early original upholstery, I noticed a difference between body manufacturers. For instance, early Beaudette bodied cars have seat cushions the have what I call large diamonds. If you count a diagonal row of diamonds, you will see they are two deep, and have a total of 15 diamonds. This is Will Ravez's Original upholstery on his Beaudette bodied 1911:
Contrast to Hayes Bodied cars, use a smaller diamond, which is three diamonds deep and has a total of 23 diamonds on the front cushion. Here is Phil Mino's original front cushion on his Hayes bodied 1911:
Robert, here is the underside of a Phil's 1911 cushion showing the leatherette covered cardboard:
The cushion is made like a pillow case, then the spring compressed and slid into the end. After the spring is in place, it would have been compressed again from the outside and the open end hand stitched. Here is Phil's:
This is the same construction of Beaudette and Hayes bodied cars.
We know that Briggs body manufacturing did upholster. According to the Coachbuilt website:
"Ford played a larger role in the fortunes of Briggs Mfg. starting in 1910 when they got a large order for 10,000 Model T interiors."
It does not say which bodies they upholstered.
We know that Ford was doing its own upholstery by 1915, but information prior to that time is very limited.
: ^ )
All good information, especially the pictures. Thanks!
I just installed seats from Cartouche on new springs from Langs. The springs need t be compressed quite a bit to get the cord at the base of the upholstery down to where it can be put in the channel. Then you crimp the channel. This preloads the upholstery and keeps it from having wrinkles.
This is a CAD model f the spring press I made from 2 x 3 lumber and four 18 inch lengths of 5/16 all thread rod.
I also used three 2 x 3s across above the spring - seat unit to spread the pressure more evenly.
(Message edited by touringtom on October 05, 2015)
Nice drawing, Robert.
What year did the crimp channel on the bottom of the spring and the cord on the bottom of the cushion skirt start?
Thanks Thomas. My springs were made from Snyders and the material from Cartouche (through Mac's.)
They told me the flap of material, about 3/4 inch that extends from the bead or pipping and they said the 3/4 material gets sewn to the flap that extends across the base form then from the front part of the seat.
In other words, the perimeter of the spring has channels, but every few inches the channel is closed to support the spring?
I'm currently upholstering the front cushion of my '13 roadster. As far as compressing the spring like a later car, forget that. It can't be done, and an original spring is not built like the late ones either to accept the welt around the bottom of the skirt. I sewed the bottom cover of the spring to the front of the skirt like originally done, and will hand stitch the two sides and back to the cushion when I get back from Hershey. I made a compression fixture for this operation, but I don't see how it would work having to hand stitch the cover on three side.
It sounds like the 1913 is the same as the 1ate 1911 and 1912s.
Just put your spring compressor over the whole Mary Anne and stitch the three sides.
When did the the groove in the spring and the welt around the bottom of the skirt become standard?