Crank handles?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Crank handles?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim williams Baldwinsville NY. on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 11:45 am:

Hi I did a search but didnot find the year when Henry
Started the cast iron crank handle can someone enlighten me
Thanks Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 12:34 pm:

1915 model year and used through 1921. Some late '14 models may have had them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marv Konrad (Green Bay's a suburb!) on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 12:48 pm:

Anyone aware? I've been watching for a 'well-preserved' crank for the '25, or even a re-pop without any success. Is there a supplier who has them? Thanks.
Marv


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 12:53 pm:

To my knowledge no one is making new crank handle assemblies. Some individual parts are available.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 01:47 pm:

The handles that were repro, aluminum, and steel were junk anyway.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 08:28 pm:

Jim,

You may not be aware of Bruce McCalley’s (R.I.P.) on-line Model T Encyclopedia. It is hosted on the Model T Ford Club of America web site – which is the site you are on. The intro page is located at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/intro.htm and the index is located at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/index.htm . And listed alphabetically on the index page if you click on “crank” it brings up the page http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/C-D.htm#crank that give you additional details – for example it is a steel rather than a cast iron handle.

1912-1914
Aluminum handle the same as the later 1911 type (All black, including handle.) In February 1911, however, a letter read, “Removed ridges from outside of handle and added dimensions specifying the exact shape of same. Called for polish all over.” The ratchet was redesigned in late 1913 and now had a different configuration of the notches which engaged the starting pin on the crankshaft.
1914-1921
Handle changed to an iron sleeve, held with a rivet-like bolt. Later versions have been seen which used a riveted-in-place pin instead of the bolt. About 1919 the starting ratchet pin was changed to a rivet with a hole for a cotter pin. The pin was no longer riveted in place. The ratchet was changed from pressed steel to malleable iron. In 1915 the factory number and foundry trademark were added inside the ratchet. In 1918 the “Ford” was added, and in 1919 the “Ford” in script was sunk into the casting.

For Marv,

Have you tried placing a “wanted ad” in the classified section at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/3487/3487.html?1444263554

Also looking at the handle on the photo of your coupe – can your handle be cleaned up or is the sleeve rusted out etc.? And of course Mark at Model T Haven probably has one. He sells at retail because that is how he makes his living. But he has a bunch of parts.... see: http://www.modelthaven.com/cars-pre

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 10:10 pm:

The early '14s still had the aluminum crank handle, but by mid year they had the cast steel one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marv Konrad (Green Bay's a suburb!) on Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 11:40 pm:

Thanks, Hap.
Like I mentioned, I have been 'watching' for an opportunity because I'm not yet at that point of necessity. I'm also watching (debating?) about the radiator apron I'll also need, possibly even as a reproduction item...., and I know those are available. Just taking one step at a time. (My shop is already "10 pounds in a 5 pound bag!" I should have built it larger when I had the chance!)
Appreciate your thought, Marv


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dylan Thomas Wills on Thursday, October 08, 2015 - 12:49 am:

My car is a very late '14 style touring. Casting date of December 28th of 1914. Its original pan has a aluminum handle, and it's a 1915 style pan (Not a long nose pan like a earlier '14). Just my 2 cents and observances...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, October 08, 2015 - 07:05 am:

Dylan,

Thank you for sharing you observation from your car. We can always learn more information from the fossil evidence (remaining cars). But we need to remember in 100 or so years things could have and often were swapped out for one reason or another. In the case of a wide nose pan (called crank case in the price list of parts booklets) there are several published sources with additional information to help us date when they were available and used. Clearly any part could be used at sometime after it was produced but not before they were produced. And while some prototype or even experimental parts were produced and used during the regular production run – they were usually smaller items that would not require a major item like a medication to a large stamping die.

The Price List of Parts for Aug 5, 1928 shows only the wide nose pan and has it listed as fitting 1912-1925. And that newer part will replace the previous pan on those engines just fine. But for the part number 3069-B the crank case front end support – the part that is riveted onto the pan they have a narrow pan part number 3069-B listed for 1911-17 and a later one for the wide pan 3069C listed for 1917-1924 and a 3069D listed for the 1924-1927 pans.

Additionally at http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/E.htm#eng8 Bruce (R.I.P.) has listed the information obtained for the Record of Changes concerning the crank cases. And on Jan 18, 1917 he has
01-18-17 T1526E C.C. Assy. Wide nose pan drawn
That documents that the drawing for the wide nose pan was completed on that date. A copy of that drawing would have been used to produce the die that would have been used to stamp the new style crank case. And it would have taken them some time to produce that die, try it out, and certify that it was working correctly before they went into full production with the new part.

So as we look at more of the available information, we see that it is virtually impossible that an engine assembled before the drawing was produced on Jan 18, 1917 would have a wide nose pan. And based on that we can say that the crank handle it not the original crank handle that was installed with that pan, since the handle was discontinued in normal production during 1914 and the pan was not stamped until 1917 or later. Could it have been the original crank handle for a Dec 1914 engine? Probably not – but if a box car of lost parts showed up at the factory and they could be used – they might have used them. I suspect that probably did not happen – but I was not there.

But … thank you so much for sharing your “fossil find.” While this time it did not lead to a new discovery – we never know which “fossil find” may lead to additional information. For example John Regan was encouraged to dig in the Ford Archives after several 1916 “pointy leaf” front springs were observed. And he found that they were in fact used by Ford for a short time during production. See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/5633.html for additional details about that story.

And if you have a chance would you please check your car for a body number and body maker marking? Please see the posting “Home for the Holidays” at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html for where and what to look for. If you find one – please send me an e-mail or private message so we don’t high-jack this thread which is about crank handles. Just click on my name at the top of this posting and my profile comes up. My e-mail is the third line down.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Thursday, October 08, 2015 - 07:45 am:

Dylan,

The same long nose pan was used from 1914 - 1916. Some time in 1917 model year the wide nose pan was adopted. A December 1914 casting makes your engine a 1915 model year anyways. It would have originally had a steel crank handle when new.

As Hap asked in so many words, we would love to know the body ID information from the stamp under the seat.

A 1915 touring built in December 1914 looks like this:


Key identifiers of the 1915 are the steel crank handle, cowl lamps with integral mounting brackets, and billed fenders.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, October 08, 2015 - 11:38 am:

My 21 would mess with the fossil records! :-) I swapped out the crank for the type with the tapered sleeve and pin. The one that was on it, sleeve with rolled end kept pinching the web between my fingers when I would use it. I think the change from the steel tapered sleeve and pin to the one piece crank with rolled on sleeve was in late 20 or early 21.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Thursday, October 08, 2015 - 07:50 pm:

I noticed with glee yesterday, that the crank handle on Mark Camerons 16 couplet has the domed crank rivet like the earlier cars. I've been saying this for years, but no one makes them. It is the exact same configuration as a hub bolt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Thursday, October 08, 2015 - 08:09 pm:

we make the early handles using Delrin and the aluminium handle. They are not junk. Vintique use to make an aluminium handle but I cannot speak for them. No one I know of makes the steel handle. Perhaps we can make it if there is a demand.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome Hoffman, Hays Kansas on Thursday, October 08, 2015 - 11:10 pm:

How about the sleeve for the later cranks?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dylan Thomas Wills on Thursday, October 08, 2015 - 11:54 pm:

Thanks for the info! My '14s body is poorly deteriorated and most was missing. It will be a "assembled" '14 style car, something that could have come off the line that way at that time of year.

The front fenders are billed '15 style fenders. Crankcase I assumed was original based on the way the hardware looked untouched and the 2" of dirt was pretty uniform built up around the block and pan seam. Crank handle assembly is also pretty worn and doesn't look to be messed with. Not trying to contest anything, I was just stating observances.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Friday, October 09, 2015 - 03:55 pm:

The 1914 style bodies were put together to some time in April, in just one plant to get rid of parts.

Mine was one of such bodies.

I had lips on the front fenders, and were 3 rivet.

The handle was Aluminum.

Engine cast in Dec. 1914.

Pan was 1914.

Had a brass quadrant.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, October 10, 2015 - 02:09 am:

I got an aluminum handle for the front crank from Chaffin's Garage a few years ago, for my mostly '13 speedster. I thought it was very well made.

Correct me if I am wrong? But doesn't the '15 pan continue with the narrow nose, but a smaller drain than the so-called teacup pans? The other big change on the pan/crankcase was that the pressed steel was a gauge or so thicker and they had a rolled over lip all the way around the sides from front to back. Both changes made the pan/crankcase considerably stronger. The earlier (through '15 and maybe a bit beyond?) pans had much more tendency to warp or break. Many of them were changed out a long time ago and replaced with the wider nose lipped pans from the late '10s through '25 because the earlier ones sagged or leaked badly due to cracks forming.
I have read so many different times for when the pan made those changes, that I really don't claim to know when is correct. I am fairly sure that the big change was made somewhere between early '16 model year and early '17 model year. But I would like a more definitive answer.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, October 10, 2015 - 08:19 am:

Wayne,

You are correct. The crank ratchet is riveted to the crank in 1915, as it had been for all previous years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Saturday, October 10, 2015 - 09:19 am:

Royce,

The front fenders on the 1915 Touring you show above also have the rib across the wide part of the fender. Maybe the last 4-rivet fender style?

Also, the side lights must be the last configuration of the E&J square lamp type. The lamps have the bulb oil font as used in later 1915 model and up side lights.

I have a John Brown 110 side lamp with the integral mount but it has the same black & brass oil font as the 1913-1914 oil lamps.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, October 10, 2015 - 09:48 am:

Ken,

As you noticed the 1915 billed fenders have four rivets. By June 1915 the fenders went to three rivets.


The Brown #110 side lamps also got cheaper for 1915 model year. They had integral brackets too. Note that the firewall hole pattern was different for 1915 model year to accommodate the new bracket position.


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