Timing gear out of sorts?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Timing gear out of sorts?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Quigley on Friday, October 16, 2015 - 07:56 pm:

How does the car behave if the timing gear is installed incorrectly? Timed the car to TDC using lang's tool, changed carbs. Regardless, I have no power on long pulls. When timed, the commutator contacts the fan belt when advanced. Does not idle smoothly. No vacuum leaks

Pulled front engine plate, then the timing gear dot and crank gear mark meet, the #1 piston is not at TDC. Engine is new but built by others a long time ago.

Can it be that the timing gear is 180 out?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Saturday, October 17, 2015 - 08:31 am:

Tom, makes no difference on the cam if the gear is 180 out. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Saturday, October 17, 2015 - 08:39 am:

Also you didn't say what timer you were using. There is a difference in the Anderson and ford roller timers and others. You may have to re bend your linkage rod to get the right position. Should set timing just after tdc maybe 3/16 piston travel, turn timer till coil starts to buzz then bend rod to that position. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By samuel pine on Saturday, October 17, 2015 - 09:38 am:

no power on long pulls? we have a long pull and
my F350 downshifts. 10spd dump truck empty I'm
at 3rd to get to the top. Model T no way. But a
steep quick grade it will do it. I'm bad in math but down back we have a grade like this .:-' can't draw on this but- period to comma its little more of grade than that but the
car goes up it in low like a champ. Hills around here, I go in high till starts to lug a bit then
retard & cut throttle a little and over the top. Old mad banged in my head don't lug any engine or you go in the crank club. Don't want to offend anybody, but you have 120,000lbs behind you and when climbing a grade you got the 4 ways on and could be passed by a model T. So tweek the timing rod and enjoy. again not offensive many post problems etc. maybe the most forgiving on the planet. don't matter being now it was just as a mystery in 1920. gotta get logic can't be a pollitition that dont own a screw driver and get a T. I'm old man & yes 23 Ford don't check oil don't check water, just drive & go why? cause Its right. far from rocket science Think Briggs & Straton lawnmower just without 3 cylinders they run all day 'splash oil system' right


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, October 17, 2015 - 10:06 am:

You know, this is going to sound nuts coming from a mechanic with 40+ years in BUT I don't actually know if the #1 piston has to be at TDC when installing timing gears as long as your marks, what ever they may be, align. I can't think of a reason it would be necessary for TDC if the gears are installed correctly. (correct me if necessary). Tom, you looked, the marks align so go on from there. Compression test.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, October 17, 2015 - 10:44 am:

A couple questions first. 1. Are you new to Model T's? 2. Did the car run better in the past, and then start losing power?

If it will run with the timing gear marks aligned, your OK.

The timer alignment tool is only good when using the original Ford timer.

Best set is to find top dead center with both valves closed. You put your thumb in the spark plug hole and rotate the crankshaft. When you feel compression pressure against your thumb you are on the compression stroke. Continue until the piston reaches top. Then just past top is the place to set your timer. The pin through the front pulley on the crankshaft should be just a bit lower on the left side of the car than on the right side (carburetor side) of the car. Remove the timer rod. Put the spark lever all the way up. Now turn on the ignition switch to battery. rotate the timer clockwise (facing the front of the engine) until it just starts to buzz. With the timer in this position bend the rod so that is fits without moving the timer. Very slowly turn the crankshaft until the coils begin to buzz (about 1/2 turn of the crankshaft). Check the position of the piston. If you set the timing using #1 piston, 1/2 turn later #2 should be buzzing. Same position of the timer for each cylinder.
r
Note, I don't know how steep a hill you are trying to climb, but my car will pull 6% grade in high gear at about 22 MPH. This would be a hill which I would begin to climb while already in high. The cars have very good pulling ability, but not much speed while climbing. Anything steeper than 6% requires lower gear. Where I live we have a lot of hills and I use Ruckstell gears a lot.

Another thing which could cause a loss of power would be low compression of the cylinders. With a stock engine at low altitude you should have around 50 PSI compression. As you increase in altitude the compression will drop. If you have uneven compression or low compression in all cylinders, you have an engine problem.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Quigley on Tuesday, October 20, 2015 - 06:20 pm:

Ok, I started this message, let me finish it with an update. I asked some of the resident experts to rationalize the timing gear alignment and read all your replies. This is what I did. I pulled the timing gear off and rotated it 180 degrees, dressed up the commutator, timed it with the Lang tool and LED light, changed carbs to a rebuilt one and put in new gas. It started up easily, idled nicely. On the test drive, it did just fine. I find it irrational that a car can even run with the timing gear installed wrong, but it sure did. I am pleased with the old girl. Whoever built the engine, make a mistake and merely matched mark to mark without checking the position of the piston and valves. t is possible to install a timing gear either way because the pins allow it. Thanks to all who contributed. This forum is amazing!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, October 20, 2015 - 07:46 pm:

I'd like a bit of information here if any one is willing to answer. Never did the job on a T but is it actually possible to install the gear incorrectly on the camshaft? That is 180 deg. out? I'm not talking about aligning timing mark's it's the cam gear I'm interested in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, October 20, 2015 - 08:26 pm:

180 deg makes no difference on the gear but you can have the roller out 180 on early camshafts as the pin hole is drilled right through.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, October 20, 2015 - 11:40 pm:

Tom, the cam gear can go on 180 degrees either way on the pins. It makes no difference which way. It can even be installed back to front, but then you can't see the timing marks.

Your engine builder can only set the gears up on the marks, whether this is at TDC is irrelevant. Nothing is adjustable from there. Any timing alterations from there are made with the lever on the steering column, that being somewhat adjustable with the length of the connecting linkage.
Hope this helps.
ALLAN FROM DOWN UNDER.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, October 21, 2015 - 01:12 pm:

Tom,

You did 4 other things in addition to rotating the timing gear, yet you're certain that timing gear relocation was THE fix?

As long as it's on the pins, and the timing marks are lined up, it is impossible to install the gear wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Quigley on Friday, October 23, 2015 - 03:44 pm:

Admittedly, I am no expert. However, when I checked where the #1 piston and valves were in relation to the timing gear, they SEEMED off. Anyway, I did it. I also cleaned up the commutator, timed it and used another carburetor. Maybe the timing gear change was simply placebic. I declared victory and am now on the road, very pleased with myself.

Someone, in this discussion, asked if I was new to the hobby. Well, no. My father bought a 1923 T in 1961 so I have been associated with the car for quite a while. I am learning more with every breakdown. I will never be an expert, but I will be well seasoned. Thanks for the constructive advice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Friday, October 23, 2015 - 07:41 pm:

Tom.
I am in the same place as you except my dad got the T in the mid 50's.
I miss working on it with him but when I am doing something on it I feel as if he is watching


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, October 24, 2015 - 01:41 pm:

I suspect that the changing carb or dressing the commutator and adjusting the timing, one or more of the above fixed the problem, but rotating the timing gear didn't matter. Anyway, now it runs better, and that is good. Enjoy driving your T!
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Saturday, October 24, 2015 - 04:36 pm:

Tom,

Yes, the end result is what's important. Glad to hear you're on the road again!


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