Brought these fenders and panels home from the barn in Leavenworth, KS hoping to use them on my WWI Light Patrol Vehicle project that is starting out on a 26 running chassis.
From what little I know about these, it looks like 1911-13 running boards, early 20's fenders, a rear door from something and two rear quarter panels from something.
Any help in ID'ng these parts will help me in my decision making as to how to proceed with them. Trade, sell, or use.
Thank you in advance.
The quarter panel looks '23 to '25 to me.
Maybe I'll get this photo thing figured out. Apears that browse window is opening up underneath my posting window and I'm not seeing it.
Fenders have brackets and eye bolts.
Richard is correct on the body panel. Front fenders are '24,'25. Rear fender is '17-'24. Front fender won't fit on a '26-'27 frame. Besides, WWI ended 11-11-18.
Isn't the body rear quarter 1921-25? They changed to this before changing to slant windshield.
Front fender does not to me appear to have a tab hanging down to match high radiator shell thus it is 1917-22 low radiator.
I agree with Layden, but extend the low radiator-style fenders to '23 and maybe into '24. I think the rear ones are '17-'25.
Are the quarter panels roadster or touring, or are they the same?
Door is a rear door from something?
The running boards appear to be the style used from 1914 through 1925. The door looks as if it would fit with the right rear section of the touring car.
Sadly, you will find that those front fenders won't work with your Improved Car frame.
Have you had the long hard talk with yourself regarding just how accurate you want your WWI Light Patrol Vehicle to be? Starting your build with a 1926 frame is going to present all sorts of problems regarding "the look". My two cents worth, perhaps over valued. Bill
I DO wish you good luck with your project.
Robert, as a side note, photos and text come out better in the final post if you put a hard return or two between sentences and photo references. Makes the text read smoothly and the photos stand alone.
Yes, I'm taking all this in as to what was "in the family" vs what I want to end up with. Starting with the 26 rolling chassis allowed me a running (pun inntended) start on getting SOMETHING out the door, but also presented challenges as it seems there were a lot of parts that only fit the 26/27 and I would end up with a 26/27 something.
As I am thinking I am going to have to build most of the body from scratch, if I could get some fenders and running boards mounted and build from there, I know I would always end up with Model T salad, but the end use would be for my use only or a possible sale to a military vehicle enthusiast, NOT a Model T police.
So I'm taking all this in and seeing what I've got and what to do with it. My wife is nudging me towards a 26/27 roadster pickup and paint it OD green and do what I want with it, and if we wanted to sell it down the road, at least someone would end up with a 26/27 roadster.
Time to ponder.
An interesting project that you can have a lot of fun with!
For what it is worth. Previous comments point out that use of a '26 frame would not be, shall we say, entirely correct? And I do have mixed feelings about using really good parts in such ways, but some minor modifications to the frame (mostly a hack saw, plus a few small holes), and only the better informed model T people would be able to even notice.
If I recall correctly, the running board brackets are about (less than?) an inch longer than the earlier ones. Hack saw and drill a new end hole X 4. The rear cross member is much wider. Hack saw, and drill new body mounting hole 2 times. If it happens to be an early enough '26 frame? The job could be done well enough that only a serious model T person could even tell. On the other hand, if it is that early enough '26 frame? They are rare enough that it would be a shame to cut it up in any way. The later majority of '26/'27 frames would be easy to tell without major changes, but only to someone that crawled under to look.
The front fender mounting ears can be easily cut off, a few new holes, and mount earlier fender irons for your earlier fenders. A few extra holes can be filled with JB Weld if you don't want them to be obvious.
All in all, not a lot to make a big change. If your frame is in marginal condition? Cut and drill away! If it is a really nice improved car frame? You might want to consider finding someone with an earlier frame to make a trade.
Good luck and have fun! W2
That left rear quarter panel looks like a 21-22 touring to me. A better shot would make it easier.
Sell what you have. New '26/'27 fenders would not look bad for you picture and your off and running
No Layden; respectfully, the quarter panel can't be '21 or most of '22 because of the 2 factory holes. The upper hole is for the top saddle bracket. This was introduced on the '23 models. The '22 and before had the L arms. And on second look I don't see the fender lip associated with '24 and '25 so I'd now agree with Mike and Layden on the year.
Some folks like cross word puzzles but I enjoy figuring out Model T puzzles. And I always learn more and more as different folks share information and what to look for in determining the year range certain parts were used etc.
George, “if” the quarter panels had been from a roadster, you would be correct that the USA Model T Roadsters continued in the style of the 1917-1920 roadsters longer than the touring car bodies. Bruce (R.I.P.) comments on that on page 314 of his book "Model T Ford" where he shows factory photos of the 1921 cars. The touring has the new 3 piece rear tub, narrow arm rest and straight windshield while the roadster still has the wide arm rest body and the top rest supports that come down from the top of the seat back. And on page 325 Bruce reprinted the Fall 1922 sales brochure that shows the 1923 touring with the slant windshield and the 1923 runabout with the straight windshield.
According to the price list of body parts Sep 1, 1923 – the roadster body front side panels as well as the back of the front seat ran from 1915 to 1922 with the new style panels running 1922-1923. For the touring car rear seat the panels are listed 1915-1921 and 1921-1923 (rear seat quarter and rear seat back panel).
But looking at the panels we see not only the rubber plug covering the hole for the new style top rest that went through the panel, but we also see further down the hole where the rear fender iron came out of the rear quarter panel on the tourings.
The roadsters were different in other aspects but that fender iron hole is very easy to see and makes the panel a touring rather than a roadster. Also the roadster body would have an extension going back from the bottom of the front seat tub along the body sill as shown below:
So based on that information, the rear quarter panels could have been used from 1921 to 1925. Note Bruce (R.I.P.) has at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1921-25H.htm In our research it has not been possible to pinpoint the actual date of introduction of the new 1921-style open cars. Our best guess is that it was about the first of the year (1921) in spite of the numerous references to the new bodies during the latter part of 1920. Furthermore, there is little doubt that the earlier-type bodies continued in production at the branches for some time after the Highland Park plant had made the changeover.
The new open-car bodies were anything but a radical change in style. In fact it takes an “expert” to see the difference from any distance. Continuing the general lines of the Model T that were established in the 1917 models, this new body was but a refinement of previous models, adding a touch of “finish” here and there. Most noticeable were the new rear quarter panels. No longer did the [touring] rear panels have the vertical bead on the side where the old side panel and the corner panel joined. The new quarter panel was a one-piece stamping making the section a continuous piece of metal from the door to the rear panel. In addition, the top support iron which held the top saddle now came through the quarter panel, eliminating the L-shaped forged bracket which had been bolted to the top of the body.
Thanks to everyone for supporting the forum and our hobby. I love what one person said, "None of us is as smart as all of us." And I appreciate the questions, photos (especially the early photos before things were likely to have been changed out) and replies.
Hap l9l5 cut off
A '24-5 tack strip will not work on the quarter panel, so I still maintain it's a 1922.
I believe the change you are referring to is when the design of the touring car body went from the 5-piece back to the 3-piece back. That is, prior to 1921 or so, the rear seat section of Model T touring car bodies was made up of 5 separate panels. The 2 side panels behind the doors, 2 curved quarter panels, then the actual back panel. This style of construction began at least as early as the 1914 model, and I suspect even a year or two earlier. I know that both my 1914 and 1916 touring bodies have 5- piece backs.
As you stated, about 1921 the touring car body was redesigned, and the back seat section went from a 5-piece design to a 3-piece design. In the new design the curved sections was incorporated into the 2 side panels, and the back section was bolted to the 2 new side panels. The panel in the photo Robert included is from a 3-piece back seat section.
I have given quite a bit of thought to why Ford went from the 5-piece back touring car body design to the 3-piece back touring car body design, and I suspect it was to make it easier to ship touring car bodies to the assembly plants in knocked down form. The wooden body framework on a 5-piece back touring body is rather rigid, and the body panels were nailed to it. It is not a design that would lend itself well to taking the body apart for shipping only to be reassembled after arrival at the assembly plant. There is no easy way to divide the body up into different sections, and I suspect that 5-piece back bodies were made as a unit and shipped to the assembly points as a unit.
The 3-piece back touring car body really was designed for shipment in knock down form. Most of the body is in the form of two side panel assemblies that are joined by a back panel, a rear seat section, a front seat section, and a cowl. I have seen Ford factory photos of a number of touring car side panel assemblies nested together prior to loading into a railroad freight car for shipment to the assembly plant. In knock down form Ford could ship many more touring car bodies in a single box car than they could if the bodies were completely assembled before loading into the box car. Upon arrival at the assembly plant and unloading, the side panel assemblies could be relatively easily be bolted together with the other body parts, and then painted as a whole.
Let me be clear that this is a conclusion based upon fragments of evidence, but no clear documentation that the 3-piece back was adopted to make it easier to ship the bodies in knock down form, and save on shipping costs.
To make the issue even more confusing, prior to the adoption of the 3-piece back touring car body design, Ford relied mainly on outside suppliers for its touring car bodies. After the 3-piece design bodies appeared, Ford seems to have taken over production of most of its touring (and roadster) bodies, and the contracts with the outside body manufacturers were ended.
I am sure there are documents somewhere in the Benson Ford Research Center that will explain exactly why Ford went from the 5-piece back design to the 3-piece back design, but I haven't found them yet.
Trent B, Interesting hypothesis. It does make sense. I personally have not seen any pictures showing assembled body sides like you mention, but do not doubt your saying so (I would love to see some eventually). Thank you for your extensive research efforts. It bothered me years ago when I noticed how much was not known. I thank you and Hap and the many others that devote so much time to add to our collective knowledge.
Drive carefully, and do enjoy! W2
My opinion on the frame: If you're making a WWI vehicle, get rid of the 26-27 frame and find one of the WWI era, or at least closer to it. If pre-26 frames were scarce, maybe the hassle of adapting an Improved Car frame would be worthwhile. But they aren't and it isn't. It would make sense to me to spend the time finding parts that fit together rather than boogering them up with extensive alterations to make them fit. Three reasons. 1 No new frames are being made. The same goes for many body parts. Customizing original parts should be avoided. 2 It will be a lot less hassle for you. 3 If you do eventually want to sell the vehicle, you'll want it to be something someone else will want to buy.
OK, time to summarize:
front fenders 17 - 25 low radiator style
rear fenders 17 - 24
running boards 14 - 25
quarter panels 21 = 25 touring
door is rear door to touring 21 -25
If I'm going to use my 26 rolling chassis, it is suggested to build a 26/27 something. Cannot use any of these parts.
If I'm going to build a WWI vehicles, start with a 14-17 frame and possibly use the funders and running boards, although not exactly period correct, are certainly close. Especially for a 17/18 vehicle.
Or find a 14-18 running vehicle with poor body and build up from there.
Hmmmmm, TO THE INTERNET!
Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the 1925 Tourings have the smaller 3/4" square trim rail and the panels have a lip on the top edge to accept it. Or did some of the 25's have the larger rail and others have the smaller style.
Robert, sent you a P.M. Dave