I was reading and re reading an old thread from 2012 about the square felloe wood wheels and how they were introduced in late 1917, which clearly to me makes them for the production year of 1918, not 1917. I know I've overlapped dates before, but I'm not sure in this case as to if that's appropriate or not. I mean just because they came out in late 1917 and maybe a few cars had them as original equipment, whose to say those few cars weren't the early arrival of the 1918 model year cars and not 1917 cars at all, even though they were sold in 1917? This silly arrangement happens today too, but do we refer to them as a vehicle from 2015 when all the advertisement seen labels them as "New for 2016!" Hell, I don't know, I haven't bought a new car in years. My last new car was 1997 Saturn SL2, it now has over 200K miles and still runs really, really well, nor does it burn or leak oil either...love that car, and oh she'll get up and roll when you want her to too.
Anyhoo...as far as I can tell this is the wheel where the "round" spoke first came into use, which I suppose is why the felloe was "squared" rather than "rounded" like the earlier wheel felloe's were. Round spokes need more foot area round the tenon than the elliptical's did.
As far as I know nobody is reproducing the joining plates for these wheels. I also think I
Hope I'm right or otherwise it's back to the drawing board...or in this case my computer. But if you see something that is incorrect, I hope you'll let me know so I can correct it. And if you really think it should be labeled 1917 rather than 1918 for some reason, let me know about that too.
I think you have it right Martin. My '17 runabout is one of the last built that model year in late June 1917. The original wheels were round felloe.
Is the round spoke diameter the same as the minor axis diameter or major axis diameter of the elliptical spoke or is it some other dimension?
Did the 1926 non-demountable wheels have wood or steel fellows?
Apparently, on non-starter, electric cars and trucks wood felloe non-demountable wheels were standard. I suppose you could buy or pay for the steel felloe demountable or even the wires then as upgrades, as you can get upgrades at any dealership today.
On my facebook page, there is some discussion as to where the stem hole is on the rounded, vs the square felloe wheels. It's been said that on the rounded the stem hole is 90º from the joint and on the square felloe the stem hole is 45º for the joining. Although all the drawings I've seen show that there is a rivet at 90º from the joint not a stem hole. All the drawings I've seen all seem to show the stem hole at 45º or between the 2nd and 3rd spoke from the joint. Anybody know for sure?
I could look at my square felloe wheels tomorrow and check. Don't forget, late in production, the 'plain-jane' cars had non-demountable metal felloe wheels.
Please check with Donnie Brown as he has an early 1926 touring. Perhaps he can tell you if it came with metal(steel) as opposed to wood felloes. I believe for the early 1926 models, all the clincher non-demountable wheels were size 30 x 3 1/2. In other words front and back wheels had the some size tire.
Martin please do not take this as a criticism of your work. Far from it, you are doing a fantastic job! In fact so good that perhaps your drawings may be taken as gospel in the future. With that in mind, I mention the steel felloe for the 1926 model to make your renditions more accurate. In fact steel felloes may have been in production before the 1926 model, but I have limited knowledge of pre 1926 vehicles.
OK, my Square felloe wheels are Ford script plates, the one set has two plates at 180 degrees with the valve stem hole about 45 degrees--it's one spoke spacing away from the plates. I also have a single rear square felloe Ford script wheel with 3 plates, two at 180 & one at 90; across from it is the valve stem hole, but again, not at 90, but not really 45. ????
My set of STEEL Fellow non-demountable wheels have 30x3 fronts and 30x3-1/2 rears. I never saw the car(s) these came off, so can't help you date them, although I'd be happy to arrange a date for a fee, and they have to be home by 11 PM!!
Arnie, I'm not looking to be gospel, I'm just looking to be as accurate as I can, The problem with Fords, is that there is no telling what one plant was putting on any given car in their production vs what another plant was putting on the cars in their production. Could it be that both steel and wood felloe's for non-demountable wheels were offered in 26? Sure could and probably earlier than that too. Tracking all this stuff down was what Bruce was trying to do and he did a good job of it too. I'm going by what I've read here (past to present postings) and in Bruce's books and any drawing I can get my paws on. But yeah, sure you bet ya! I'll going to talk to Donnie Brown.
David, I've seen wheels like that too, where you have instead of the 2 joining plate you've got 3, all evenly spaced from each other. I thought at first that maybe the felloe was in three parts, but have been told over and over and also seen drawings that they were always built in halves. So why is there a third one on some wheels and only two on others??? I have no idea...unless that third one is covering something.
The set of steel felloe's sounds like a Ford set up, you got pictures? I'd appreciate seeing pictures.
Steel felloe, 30" x 3 1/2" non-demountable were made by 1920 and ran to the end of production.
Used up to end, this rear wheel has large brake drum, '26-'27.
That said, Ford still must have used wood felloe too for longer time after 1920, note the 3" wood felloe on front, and 3 1/2" on rear.
And then again, here are the metal felloe non-demountable wheels at about the time of these being available.
So....wood felloe for up to about 24 then probably the metal felloe was more standard to the end of the T....for those stubborn folks who didn't want those new-fangled demountable and the extra cost of a spare rim and tire hanging off the back of their Ford
My Steel Felloes look just like Dan's, but I could get you some pictures in a few days.
My 3 joining plate wheel has two where you'd normally see them, and the third 90 degrees from them, in other words one felloe half on this wheel is actually two quarters. Strange, eh? One would think this wheel would be very out of balance!
I used to have a few of the steel felloe non demountable wheels, sold them a few years ago. I never checked them for size, but I think there was a couple of large drum rears and a small drum rear. They were in excellent shape, and I bought them thinking I might change them to demountables. After I bought them, I was told the spokes were different than the demountable wheels(length?). Never checked it out though. Just something else to add to the confusion! Dave
The steel felloe and rims look to be one piece, not a felloe and rim riveted together...right?
Yep, that's one weird wheel, you got there David D., but I found the pictures Steve sent me a while back when I started the wheel project and it is indeed in three equally spaced sections (something that I've been told never happened). Now the question is...is this a Ford wheel or some aftermarket wheel or one from the other vendors that supplied Ford with wheels (it does have Ford script on the joining plates and the middle one has that "M")?
Well one things sure, I've got another wheel to draw...maybe two??? Looks like the wheels are going to every bit a multi drawing assembly as those switches turned out to be...fun never quits!
Woo, I just noticed that car that is right hand drive looks to be 1921 touring...but it's a Canadian or European car so I'm sure theirs were different from ours. Maybe the steel felloe was only available in the 20's in foreign markets and not in the US until later what do you think?
The felloe and rim are one piece, with a flat piece welded on the inside to "fill" the well made by forming the felloe. Guess you'll need some pictures to 'splain it well.
For what it is worth. Years ago, I had a very original looking pair of 30X3.5 clincher rear wheels with large brake drums that appeared to be originally installed (of course, how can one really know for certain?). They were square wood felloe clincher wheels, apparently 1926.
A few years before that, I had been fortunate to see a few hundred photos from a private collection that included many Ford factory photos. Included in those, were a few pictures clearly showing brand new 1926 improved style basic non-electric cars with oil lamps and clincher non-demountable wheels. Several of the pictures clearly showed wood felloe wheels. For that reason, although I knew the wheels I had were unusual. I didn't think they were really special, and I later let them go. With this debate going around again and again, I now wish I had kept them.
I do not know what became of the collection of photos. Many were published, but likely only a small fraction of the collection. I am fairly sure they are still around, but do not really know. I would like to go back and look at them again. And I know several people on this forum that I wish could get copies of everything I saw, and much more. It was a fabulous collection.
As to the front wheel size? I know what I think I remember? But I am not sure enough to commit myself (this was forty years ago).
The steel felloe non-demountable wheels are unusual around here. But common enough that I do not think they were largely Canadian. I have had a couple of them, sold years ago. And I have seen dozens at swap meets over the years, plus I know David D has some.
Again, I have seen them in photos as early as the early '20s. Forty years ago, when we were looking at those photos? The only conclusion we could come to is that both types were used for several years. Why Ford would have used two different types of uncommon but similar wheels at the same time? I never heard or figured it out. It could have been a regional thing.
All for what it is worth.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
The part where I said "looks to be a 1921 touring" should be looks to be a 1922 touring. The 1922 windshield is the only one that I know of where the hinge is above the split. All the others are at the windshield split.
And that picture with the touring is either a Canadian/European or it's a flopped neg. But since the door on the drivers side has hinges and apparently opens, I'd say it's Canadian/European.
If anybody has or seen or knows of a picture of this steel felloe wheel on a 1920's US made T, I'd sure like to see it.
Here is a Ford adv. photo, 1920, shows the metal felloe non-demountable.
Close up view
Another metal one (lower left) on part of upside down T's in derby races.
Don't see too many today, mostly folks like the demountable with rims, and these are now a bit hard to find.
The wheels has been one of the most aggravating parts of the 26-27 Improved model study I have been trying to do. To the best of my current info, I believe the steel felloe non demountable wheels came out sometime around 1920 as Dan states above. I do not have a "date of change" for them just some parts catalog dates. They may have been used along with and overlapping with the wood felloe non demountable wheels, for I do not know how long. I used to believe that there were no 30 X 3 inch non demountable steel felloe front wheels. I just believed them to be a legend or "old wives tale" till I actually saw a pair at Chickasha last year and then another forum member sent me photos with very good measurements of his pair of 30 X 3 inch non demountable steel felloes front wheels. So they do exist. But my 1928 parts catalog shows starting in 1926 that the non demountable steel felloe wheels were 30 X 3-1/2 inch front and rear. So my current belief (till proven wrong again) is that aprox 1925 and before (maybe before the time the 21 inch tires and wheels became available ???) non demountable steel felloe wheels are 3-1/2 inch rears and 3 inch fronts. Then 1926 and 1927 non demountable steel felloe wheels are 3-1/2 inch front and rear. I used to also think the non demountable steel felloe wheels were somehow "tied or linked" to non starter cars. But the catalog shows the wheels for 26 and 27. The non starter option was not offered on 27 Improved cars, as it was discontinued and not offered for the 1927 models. As a side note, I have been interested in the non demountable steel felloe wheels since a discussion I had with Bruce about them aprox 20 years ago. I was building a 1923 non starter car then, and Bruce said for me to look for the steel felloe non demountable wheels for it as they were one more of the "non starter details" I needed. But he quickly pointed out that he was still confused as to their dating and place in production. So that car ended up with four 30 X 3-1/2 inch steel felloe non demountable wheels on it, because at that time neither of us had ever seen a 3 inch wheel. But knowing what we know now, I should have had 3 inch fronts and 3-1/2 inch rears. Martin, If you want me to, Ill find the pics of my steel felloe non demountable wheels for you. There is one detail you may want to see. There is a steel band that runs around the inside of the rim. It is to cover the ends of the spokes, so the tube does not rub on the spokes. It is welded in place and not removable. At least not easy to remove. As always I am always open to comments or proving my thoughts wrong. And Martin, we love your drawings. Keep up the good work... submitted with respect, and sometimes confusion ,, Donnie Brown ..
Donnie, while you have your wheels dug out, can you check the spokes to see if there is any difference between them and the demountable wheel spokes(length?)? Thanks. Dave
When you have 3 joining plates at 12, 3, and 6, is the stem at 9? Would that help to balance the wheel?
Well, I dug mine out of the pile, and looked at them up close--turns out I have 3 metal felloe wheels, two front & one rear--the other rear is a demountable rim! Also, I doubt my wheels will ever have tires mounted on them, I think they're just too far gone. Bummer. So here are pics of my wheels, and you can plainly see the fronts are narrower and taller than the rears. I would suspect the spokes are unique to these wheels.
And here's my 3 plate wheel
and a close-up of the joining plate
Here's my "stack-o-wheels" all square felloe, Ford script plate (two each wheel)-- never saw the car they were on. Note the location of the valve stem hole.
Here's a closer image of the joining plate
Yep, that stem hole is between the 2nd and 3rd spoke from the joining plate, right where the drawings I've got says it should be...but the drawings I've got are for round felloe, not square.
I discussed the placement of the stem hole with Herb Miner tonight and he said he thought that the 90º (or between the 3rd and 4th spoke) stem hole only appeared on the "tear drop" 1909- (early) 1910 spoked wheel, all later round felloe wheels had the stem hole precisely where the drawings I've seen says it should be between the 2nd and 3rd spoke or 45º from the joining plate.
Ok, Steel felloe non-demountable wheels were available here in the US somewhere around 1920, with small brake drum and large drum in 26-27, remember what I said...fun never quits, and here I thought wheels would be a easy onesy-twosy tops simple thing...ha,ha,ha
Parts book dosen't list the non demountable for 1927, only 26 with the 11" drum.
Balloon demountable for 25/6/7 and wire for 27.
But what the books say and what is found seem to be 2 different things.
Forgot to mention a non demountable in 30 x 3'1/2 for the front was available in 1926 as well.
Martin, this thread proves what I have said for years. The more we learn about these T's, the less we know! JMHO. Dave
Hmmmm, so the book says only wires in 27, but there are cars (mostly but not always non-electric, non-starter) around that have both the wood and steel felloe with wood spokes and believed to be original equipment to boot.
Somebody else also posted that the 30 x 3 1/2 was available on all four wheels in 26 whereas before 26 they were only available on the rears. Wonder whose brilliant idea that was? Was it a marketing ploy to sell aftermarket larger rims and tires also in 3 1/2 or some scheme of Fords for their dealerships to be able to offer an upgrade or is it a better stance and stability issue? Because you've got to figure that folks then are pretty much like folks today (if not more so), they'd want they money to go as far as it can. Why carry two spares in two different sizes when you could carry one that works for all the tires on the car? Plus wouldn't it have been an added expense to have two different sizes? Is this a matter being different and problematical? Or was there some solid reasoning behind it, just curious?