1915 Brass?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: 1915 Brass?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 11:44 am:

I'm making up a list of all the items that should be brass or brass plated for June 1915. Have I missed anything?

Radiator
Headlight rims
Hubcaps
Side lamp tops & rims
Tail light top & rim
Shackle oilers
Steering gear case & cover
Spark & throttle levers


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 11:55 am:

"Murphy" fasteners (Ford never used the Murphy brand)
Tire valve stem covers
Tire pump cylinders and fittings
Horn screen assembly
Horn tube and reed holder and elbow


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris, Huntington Beach California on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 11:59 am:

Speedo rim (varies by brand?)
Mixture knob on dash
Windshield screws


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 12:06 pm:

Mixture knob is painted black in this factory photo.

Notice that the cowl lamps are not installed yet - the cowl lamp castle nuts and the radiator castle nuts are also brass.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale Peterson College Place, WA on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 12:09 pm:

Top bow nut cover


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 12:10 pm:

Hi Steve -

Klaxon horn bell?
Mixture knob?
Speedometer instrument trim?
Kingston carburetor?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 12:21 pm:

By June the horn would be electric, wouldn't it? My reading finds mag horns with a brass-trimmed bell as early as January and all-steel "by October". I guess either one would be legitimate for June.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick J. Gunter -- Sparta, Missouri, USA on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 12:25 pm:

Coil box Switch plate
Windshield hinge nuts
Light switch plate and knob
Sidelight nuts
windshield channel
Oil filler cap
Spindle bolt oilers
Radiator cap
Sediment bulb
Deck handles


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick J. Gunter -- Sparta, Missouri, USA on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 12:31 pm:

Fan hub
fan oiler
greasers
lettering on patent plate


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 01:02 pm:

In the factory photo Royce posted above, the steering wheel nut appears to be brass.


This period photo advertising an accessory hood seems to disagree on some of the items listed so far. Is it possible this is really a 1916? I notice that besides the aftermarket hood it also has electric side lamps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 01:16 pm:

Dale, I beg to differ with you on the Top Prop Nut being brass. The picture Steve posted just above illustrates my opinion that the Top Prop Nut is black and not brass.

Actually, I don't think that Ford ever made those with a brass cap on them. In addition, the repo parts of this piece are about 1.46" in diameter, but the originals, as on my '14 Touring, are 1.21" = much smaller.

I welcome any other opinions concerning the Top Prop Nut.

Thanks,

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 01:42 pm:

Coil Box switch plate depends on car's assembly date, Ford went to a Blued steel switch plate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 01:51 pm:

>>>By June the horn would be electric, wouldn't it?<<<

I don't know what accessories your car is sporting but my understanding is that early magneto horns had some brass trim and the Klaxon horn was optional equipment at the time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 01:57 pm:

Carburetors: The Kingstons and the Holley G are bronze.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 02:41 pm:

The oil cap had been steel since the 1914 model year. The steering wheel nut is black painted steel since 1912. Prop nuts were black painted steel back to the beginning of T production.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 03:30 pm:

1
When I researched my recent 1915 Runabout purchase I was unable to verify without authoritative research if the steel trunk lid handles should be brass plated or painted black.
I suspect black painted is correct, but could be wrong.
Ron Patterson


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 03:58 pm:

Steve-
The steering quadrant should be brass too, not just the levers.



Hubcaps would be brass with black background:



: ^ )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 04:43 pm:

Some of you are disagreeing with the Model T Encyclopedia, the MTFCI judging guidelines, and period photos. What's an innocent novice to believe? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house . . .caldwell county, TX on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 05:51 pm:

Ron,
My research reveals our turtledeck cast or forged trunk handles were painted black but had brass bezels fastened by steel rivets


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 06:21 pm:

George
That is what I have too, BUT the restorer of this known to be original (not built from various parts) 1915 Runabout had the handles brass plated?
Do you have any Ford print/information to support which is actually correct?
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 06:50 pm:

Steve
I remember well Bruce McCalley's response when I once asked if information in an Encyclopedia photo was correct. He said the photo is correct, who knows about the content?
Ron Patterson


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 07:51 pm:

I was told, and I'd swear that I read somewhere, that the spark/throttle levers were painted black. Now I gotta go back and do more research...some rainy day. I sure's heck hope I don't have to change mine on my '15!! Or maybe they just need the paint stripped?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, October 30, 2015 - 10:09 pm:

Apparently most levers were brass plated.




"The cover was much atter..."
"...steel with the attened ends..."

It seems the software used to print the Encyclopedia omits fl.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Saturday, October 31, 2015 - 07:59 am:

Please add to the list:

Corbin coil box latches.
Windshield hinge to windshield frame screws.

With the exception of the headlight rims, sidelight/tail light rims and tops, and coil box switch plate, most of these brass plated parts carried over to 1916.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Saturday, October 31, 2015 - 08:29 am:

Thanks Steve. Given that, I think I'll leave sleeping dogs lay. The paint on them is in fantastic shape, no need to screw things up!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, October 31, 2015 - 08:57 am:

OK, let's get down to details. Here are the brass radiator nuts currently available, along with a standard castle nut.



1 Are the radiator nuts correct?

2 Should the brass nuts holding the side lamps be of the radiator style, or standard?

3 Should the tail light nut be the same as the side lamp nuts, or black?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, October 31, 2015 - 09:13 am:

Steve -- Yes, those repro brass nuts are very close to the originals. They were used on the radiator mounting studs and all 3 lamps. I think they were used on the windshield hinges as well. You should use a brass cotter pin with them. If I can remember to do so at my shop today, I'll take a pic of an original nut.

(Message edited by coupelet on October 31, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Saturday, October 31, 2015 - 09:30 am:

Some folks need to do a little research, before they go posting information.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Saturday, October 31, 2015 - 12:32 pm:

On this subject, do you think the small parts such as the castle nuts above, and other small brass plated parts were polished from the factory? I think not at this point, because it would have been too time consuming. I think the larger parts probably were. Comments?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul iverson freeport ill. on Saturday, October 31, 2015 - 12:59 pm:

I can't ad much but I do learn a lot from you guys! Our 16 has brass rad nuts and nut on rear oil lite


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Saturday, October 31, 2015 - 01:44 pm:

Windshield nut:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, October 31, 2015 - 03:07 pm:

Thanks for that pic, Keith. I was thinking there was something odd about those but couldn't remember what it was. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Saturday, October 31, 2015 - 05:03 pm:

This is a non-horn button '15 column that I think has original paint on it. I see absolutely no signs of any brass plating on levers, rods, or quadrant. This may be one of the exceptions that was noted in the article.






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, October 31, 2015 - 10:26 pm:

For what it is worth? When I was restoring the early (?) '16 center-door I had years ago, the steering column that was in the car had some original brass plating left on the pressed steel quadrant. The car had suffered a bad '50s restoration, so it was always difficult to know what was or was not really original to it. The column had been repainted black way back when, and the remaining plating had all been covered. I took it to mean that the column was probably original to the car and the car was probably originally an early '16. The column was evidence to that effect, NOT proof. It was unlikely that someone that had used so many clearly wrong late parts on a clearly earlier car would not have by chance gotten such an unusual early column.
The research I attempted to do at the time indicated that brass plated quadrants were manufactured through July '15 and continued showing up on cars for several months later. But information available at that time was not as good as what is available today. Even the Benson Research center was mostly unsorted boxes. I did at that time talk directly to both Bruce McCalley and Ray Miller.
Today, evidence indicates that brass plating may have been used even a bit later.

I will again take an opportunity to thank all those that have spent so much time researching the buried history of our model Ts> THANK YOU ALL of YOU!!!!!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, November 01, 2015 - 08:34 am:

Here is a pic of the radiator/lamp nuts. The two on the left are originals; the two on the right are repros. All are brass.

nutz

The original ones have square-bottom slots for the cotter keys, while the repros have round ones. The repros also have a bit more of a rounded "shoulder" at the top than the originals have, but they're pretty close.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Sunday, November 01, 2015 - 09:42 am:

I was quite surprised to read:

" "Murphy" fasteners (Ford never used the Murphy brand) "

Huh.

Not ever? Was this just T production? Might the Murphy brand have been used on earlier models? Was this solely a money saving decision? I have seen quite a few brass era Ts with Murphy brand fasteners. What does the MTFCI judging guidelines say about Murphy brand use or exclusion?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Sunday, November 01, 2015 - 10:06 am:

Virtually all of the early brass T's I have ever seen have had Murphy fasteners with an "M" in a circle. It is not too difficult to tell the original from the reproductions. I have only seen one car that had Anchor brand fasteners, with an "A" in a diamond on the twist part.



There was an evolution of side curtain fasteners on Model Ts. I believe early Murphys had the cast oval base, then cast hourglass shaped base, then the oval shaped base stamped. By the time they got to 1912-1913, they were using a lot of different brands, most of them plain.

There was a lawsuit between Murphy and Dot, and I believe the original spelling of Burco was Bourque.

I've got some documentation saved somewhere...
Or you can google it!

: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, November 01, 2015 - 10:17 am:

I've been around a lot of unrestored Model T's. Several brands of common sense fasteners, not a single Murphy until after restoration. It would be interesting to see the purchasing records to see if Ford ever ordered any from Murphy.

Some originals are marked with a letter or trade mark but many are unmarked. By 1915 they were still brass but painted (or coated) black.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Monday, November 02, 2015 - 09:09 am:

Sorry for the thread drift...

I concur, by 1915 Ford was using black common sense fasteners. They were NOT Murphy fasteners with the M in a circle.

-Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Monday, November 02, 2015 - 10:10 am:

I took a lot of photos of this unrestored '12 that belongs to a certain fellow in Harbor City, CA. There are some fasteners that have markings. None are "M". All were black originally. The car is a completely original 1912, paint and upholstery and top too. All of the buckles and footman loops are also black, something that you never see on restored examples.





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Phil Mino, near Porterville on Monday, November 02, 2015 - 01:26 pm:

11

1

2

3

4


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Monday, November 02, 2015 - 08:32 pm:

I stand humbly corrected Phil! How many non - Murphys on that car, or are all of them Murphy cartouches?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, November 02, 2015 - 09:36 pm:

Incredible! We all keep learning more. If we want to.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, November 02, 2015 - 10:15 pm:

I have seen a number of sidelights on our Canadian sourced cars fitted with nickel plated brass dome nuts rather than brass castle nuts. Now you lot have me wanting to check if the light threads are drilled for split pins. My memory says they were not drilled. Were all production lamps drilled, up into the 20's?

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Phil Mino, near Porterville on Tuesday, November 03, 2015 - 12:48 pm:

Royce - That's a good question. I find that these fasteners are not uniform as one might expect to see on a restored car.

Some, while marked, are simply not legible such as this one on the dash:

13

A few have a distinct circle, but the "M" is difficult (if not impossible) to read:

5

6

9

A few others do not appear to be marked:

8

12


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Tuesday, November 03, 2015 - 05:59 pm:

Steve, will you be posting your final list here or on your blog when all the dust settles? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Archer Hayward, CA. on Wednesday, November 04, 2015 - 05:00 pm:

Tire tube valve stem dust covers were all nickel plated.

Ed aka #4


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