Hi all, I'm hoping your collective knowledge base might help me. My wife's 02 Honda Accord-4cylinder has always used about a quart of oil between changes (3K miles) since we bought it with 60K miles on it. In the last month, now at 210K miles, it has suddenly developed a thirst for oil, took 2 quarts between changes, and now we've put in 2-1/2 quarts and we are only halfway between oil changes.
I'm about to spend some bucks replacing the timing belts & other work, so I'm a bit worried. Oh, and today I change out the EGR valve, as the light came on and the code noted "insufficient re-circulation"--but I wouldn't think that would cause oil usage?
Many thanks in advance

look for the signs -
It either goes out the tail pipe - blue smoke
Or drips on the ground - small puddles like a T makes


Most vehicles use a bit of oil at 210K miles but a quart in less than 1,000 miles and getting worse suggests that it is getting tired.

The code after changing the EGR suggests that the vacuum is low - maybe indicating low compression-
I would do a compression check - but expect that the motor is nearing EOL (end of life)

You might get lucky and find cracked leaking vacuum hoses.

Mine wasn't a Honda (Chev 305 V-8), but had similar symptoms.

The intake manifold gasket had burned away around the EGR exhaust port. The suction in the intake manifold was sucking oil mist out of the crankcase.

My first clue was that the spark plug nearest the EGR valve was chronically oily. And I was using a quart in about 500 miles. I was going to do a valve job, but the guy at the machine shop advised me to pull my intake manifold first and see if the manifold gasket was OK. He saved me a bundle of time and money and talked himself out of a job.

Could this be true of a Honda also ? I don't know.

Dick

Further OT - Chrysler fuel injected V8s were/are notorious for burned/cracked intake manifold gaskets that produce these same symptoms.

I always consult the Pontiac Grand Prix forum when I have a problem with my car. Searching usually yields the answer but sometimes I ask for advice and usually get good answers regarding a diagnosis and repairs. Very helpful whether I do the work myself or take it to a mechanic.

You can do the same regarding your problem:

http://www.hondaaccordforum.com/forum/

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/

I've also found that Youtube is very useful in diagnosis and making repairs.

Sounds typical to me for a 13yr old car with 210,000 miles. Time for a rebuild or upgrade.

Erik,
I would love to visit those Honda Forum, but on dial-up, they just crash.
Philip,
I hope not, Hondas are supposed to go 300K mile if cared for with no problems. I believe I have cared for this car properly. I have always been peeved that it used oil from the day we bought it though.

Check your air filter, had one (Ford 3.0L) that started using oil, turned out that the air filter was quite dirty, replaced filter and oil usage went back to normal.

I agree with those who consider that engine a 300,000 mile engine. I would look for a failed gasket, plugged filter, etc.

The unknown variable in your case is what happened to it during that first 60,000 miles. The fact that it was using a quart of oil between changes is not encouraging. I have 2 Acuras (fancy Hondas), one an '06 with 135,000 miles and an '05 with 150,000 miles. They're both V 6's, not 4 bangers, but I've never had to add oil between changes even once. They use maybe 1/2 to 1 pint between oil changes.

As long as we are making comparisons.

I had over 350,000 miles on an Audi 200 QT. I changed the oil when it needed a quart at 6,000 miles. I also had an Audi A6 the took close to 5,000 miles before it needed a quart of oil.

My current Hyundai GT350 with 130,000 miles gets a quart of oil at around 4,000 miles.

In my opinion a quart at 3,000 or 1,000 is very wrong, and indicates a problem.

If our new Chrysler Town and Country needed oil before the oil change is due I would would be all over them.

One the other hand the T requires oil every time I drive it

If the PCV valve fails in the open position it will result in excessive oil consumption.

Sounds related to crankcase ventilation or something. A dirt dobber nest can reek havoc.
If the engine block cant breath it will force the pressure along with oil out of the weakest point. Usually a rear main seal of the engine.

Lay a piece of clean cardboard under the engine after a good drive and check for spots. Of course look up from where the spot is if there is 1.
My bet is rear main seal or front seal,weak points.

And to be completely honest,at 210+ some main bearing wear is possible and that would allow a oil leak. If you think on terms of our T's the rear main wears a lot because of the weight of the trans and flywheel. Same with a modern car.
The cardboard test will again confirm if the leak is at the rear main.

Pull a couple spark plugs. Are they fouled with a black goo? If fairly clean,it is a leak,if gooey,it is burning it.


If it is a leak, then you will have to decide if a quart of oil once in a while is cheaper than repairing the leak.If it is burning it, well a overhaul is in order.

I remember back in the late 90's a friend had a 93 Civic. The engine wore out at about 200,000 and was very well maintained. He bought it new and it was serviced religiously.
He went to a honda mechanic and they ordered a used engine with low miles directly from Japan and installed it. Was cheaper than a overhaul and ran great for years.
Funny thing,thread drift, When the engine was ordered and it came in, the point distributor and carb-intake had to be removed and the fuel injection and electronic ignition installed.

Henry, I had one Honda dealer tell me that my rings probably never seated & won't now! This came up because I was considering having the valve seals done, though it has never smoked & passes CA smog every time. Yeah, no idea about the first 60K, although the car looked cared for. One of the few times I bought a car from a dealer & have always regretted it. They wore us down, and closed the deal after midnight!!
I was younger then, but still naive (probably still am!)!
Hmm, wouldn't PVC valve being stuck cause a code on the computer?
I really appreciate all the suggestions!!

David replace the PCV, inexpensive and worth the try, also check all your vacuum lines as Fred said. Valve stem seals usually show up to be worn on initial start up. KGB

David, you need to wash your hands and check every vacuum hose under the hood. Around 100,000 miles there are rubber hoses that will go bad, especially with vapors coming from ethanol based fuels. Check first the hose from your intake to the brake booster (assuming you have power brakes). If you can touch the hose and it leaves black on your hands then you have a rotten hose which is basically becoming porous like a sponge. Several decomposing hoses will give you a considerable vacuum leak overall. If you are feeling a slight miss or stumble in your idle then this is almost 100% dead on. You will not get a code from this unless you develop a hole and in that event it will only throw a code in between the two systems being monitored. An EGR code or spark code will probably show up which reveals that the problem is actually a vacuum leak.
Let us know bub.

I'm amazed that you blokes talk as if it is an easy fix, at this end of the world with that sort of mileage it is considered just plum wore out and is junked.

Patrick,
sounds like very good advice--if it's not raining tomorrow am (YES, we are supposed to get rain!) I will do that check. PVC valve is fine, BTW, but the new EGR valve body was assembled backwards, so I had to return it. Hmm, if it's a vacuum hose, I may have saved some bucks!
Frank, around here cars go 300k and better, even some domestic ones! (JOKE!!)
David

Shoot, Id say even longer than 300,000K.
Ive only purchased two new vehicles in my life, both Ford F-150's, my oldest one a 2000 F-150XL extended cab with 4.2 V6 and 5 speed is pushing 455,856 miles without a major part failure. My other 188,986 and the same but it is a 4.6L.

I broke it in easy with conventional oil and have been using 5w-20 Pennzoil Platinum synthetic the day it ran out of warranty. Always have retightened and retorqued engine, trans, frame, and body every 50,000 miles and have only changed the usual belts, hoses, plugs, an alternator, and some plastic clips for the IMFR valve actuators.
Ported and polished it myself and after 455,856 miles I am still getting close to 28 miles to the gallon. I keep the inside of my engines very clean and stay on top of things like rotting hoses because I will never buy another new vehicle again.

David, your emission system has components that just plain need changing after a while and when you are having problems with no OBD2 error codes it tends to be in areas where there are no sensors to ping between and those areas are routine maintenance areas that are replace or repair like plugs and belts.

Don't forget to check the hoses and hose connections between your carbon canister and fuel tank as well.

Also remove your EGR valve again and use a long wire or straightened clothes hanger to ensure you have no carbon buildup in the ports for the EGR because often times it will build up and clog the ports.

Sounds like I've got to double-check everything.
Patrick, I've sprayed Seafoam down there, but haven't run any wires down there, maybe an old speedo cable would be a good idea??? Last time I cleaned them out, the light stayed off for about 3 weeks.

Raining this morning, still raining & supposed to rain tomorrow, it'll be a little bit before I can work on it (no sheltered area to work on it, they'
re filled with other stuff (Model T, A, pianos, windows etc.)
But we really need the rain!! Wednesday it goes in the shop for the timing belts & struts.

Frank in Aus, that is low to mid range mileage for the Hondas and yoda's.
My dad's dodge trucks all have over 250+ on them,still going.
If a car aint lasting that long for you all,it must be something about running upside down that is not oiling the engine !

Changing the timing belt sure isn't going to stop oil consumption. A compression test is what you need to determine where your oil is going. Barring of course a leak. Another thing to check is internal engine venting such as a pcv valve (if they even use those things anymore). Improper venting will force the oil into unheard of places due to pressure building in the crank case. I realise a lot of you guys don't consider 250 thou "the end" but there's got to be some internal wear inside by that time. Compression test before any $ is spent.

Charlie,
Yes, I know timing belt & struts won't solve the oil problem, but it is due for these things, the appointment was set up before the oil problem--SO!! I will talk to the shop owner about the problem & maybe he will have some advice about it--yes, I do hate to spend $$$ on something that MIGHT be terminal--but if the timing belt breaks, it's an interference valve engine and I'll have a whole lot more headaches! I don't have a compression meter that will reach that far in to check it (plugs are recessed in a tube, I guess that's the way it's done nowadays, my Tacoma is the same way (but it has individual coils mounted on top of the plugs too, so I guess I drive a T everyday??? ) I did check online & rebuilt long blocks are about $2K, plus install--that still sounds cheaper than replacing the car. . . .IF I have to go that route.
It is supposed to clear up tomorrow, so I'll check the vacuum lines then, raining pretty good here today! Still no water in the creek though.

Who knows, if you ask him about it, maybe you'll find out that it is a known issue with a "secret warranty" and they'll fix it for free!

I wouldn't do a timing belt till I find out what the oil consumption problem is.It shouldn't have been using a quart at 60,000.I have 2002 accord with 165,000 uses no oil between changes.For what it's worth from a retired Honda shop owner.

Bill, I agree, but it has been consistent since we purchased it--until this recent development.
When I mentioned the usage to the Yuba City Honda dealer, his response was, "Your rings probably never seated" & maybe this is why the car was traded in. . . Who knows, the Roseville dealer wouldn't ever tell me--they wouldn't even change the cabin filters although it was under the "used Honda Warranty (the filters were filthy and put out a smell that made my wife's eyes water when she drove it home--we should have turned it back then under the "3-day" CA buyer's remorse law. I changed them myself & it's no fun on this car!).
IMHO, this car is a lemon, but my wife loves it, what do you do?? Sunny tomorrow, I will check under the hood for hose problems, and call the shop doing the belt changing to see what they suggest (I decided that the belt changing was too much for me do undertake without a nice shop w/ a concrete floor to work in.)
Unfortunately my favorite Honda trained mechanic has retired & no longer does "on-the-side" repairs--like me, he's getting too old for this stuff; arthritis, back problems, etc.--I will live through the pain to work on my Ts, but the modern stuff. . . )

UPDATE;
Car is in the shop, Parking on dirt hides some things---the drain plug is leaking like a sieve, they will look into it today. Compression test: 200, 165, 100, 125 (not certain, once I heard the 100 I sorta stopped listening). His advice: don't' change the belt, drive it till it drops & save up for a replacement engine--probably about 3K installed. Lots of oil on the plugs. I'm wondering if #3 has always been a problem, considering it's always used 1 qt between changes; every 3K miles.
Any further advice will be appreciated!!
(needless to say, this puts restoration projects on a back burner!)

Wow My post (second one in the thread) was close.

Now my arm hurts because I tried to pat myself on the back!

And this crow pie is hard to swallow!!

David that must be a typo 200 pound? if one is low that maybe your oil burner if you can get a leak down tester that may help to find out more info.or a bore scope to see if any marks on cyl from broken rings. if all plugs are oily maybe valve seals? comp. testers can give funny readings try again it may not be the same after running eng.

Paul,
The shop thinks the 200 is caused by carbon build up. Should be around 165. Apparently tear down and rebuild just isn't economical by a local shop anymore, the rebuilders & used engine dealers have undercut them badly.
Yes, I suspect that low cylinder (actually, two are fairly low) has probably been my problem all along.
I'd rather be spending my time & funds on a model T!

Can anybody verify my belief that modern auto engines are broken in before they leave the factory? This would negate what dealer told David about the rings never having seated themselves. That doesn't sound right to me.

I don't know about modern engines being "broken in" at the factory, but what the dealer told you sounds like an explanation made up to explain what he had no clue about. It pegs out my BS meter.

JMHO

Henry - I agree about the "dealer BS"! Sometimes they rattle off a quick answer, forgetting that even though they are used to dealing with so many young folks of todays "high-tech" computer generation that wouldn't know their piston rings from their "ring tones", there are still a few folks like us old Model T guys that actually understand engines!

And Dexter, about "break- in" procedures, and this is pretty much conjecture on my part, but I think I'm right,......many things actually have benefitted from modern computer age technology. One of those things is the fact that nowadays, the individual parts and components fit together with tolerances so closely controlled that "break-in" procedures are pretty much a thing of the past,.....both in the factory and by car dealers and new car owners. "Break-in" was important way "back when", because engine parts actually did have to "wear in" to the point where they fit together pretty well, just from initial wear. Most, if not all parts were designed and manufactured with specifications that read like for example, theoretically, a tappet diameter might be specified say, for example like,.... .750" plus or minus .002", and the hole in the block for that tappet might be specified .755" plus or minus .002". So, again "theoretically", depending on how accurately the block was machined for tappets (worn cutting tools, etc.) and which particular tappet came out of the parts bin, a .748" tappet might get dropped in a .757" hole which would then be a pretty loose clearance of .009", or conversely, another tappet might end up in a hole with a pretty tight fit with a clearance of only .001". In those days, the "unknown" was how many, BARELY WITHIN TOLERANCE happenstance combinations like that would occur in any given new engine where a couple parts came together that just barely within specified tolerance. But nowadays, parts are made so precisely that they are nearly perfect! And for that reason, any thought of careful "break-in" is just about unnecessary.

Anyway, that's "my story an' I'm stick'n to it",.....harold

I know when I rebuild a small engine and try chrome rings they hardly ever do right.
I wonder if Honda uses chrome rings? If so,then maby they didn't break in.But I would say small chance.

UPDATE: Thanks to this forum, I have been offered a very low mileage 02 Honda engine at a very fair price, including my 20 hour round trip to pick it up. I THINK this will solve my vehicle problems for at least a few years, if not 10 years or more.
Many thanks to everyone here. I'll not mention the generous offer's ID until he allows it (forgot to ask if I could!) So now I need to figure out when I can take 4 days to go get it. (I know, it could be done in 2 days, but if I'm going that far, there's relatives to visit that I haven't seen in decades--so engine & ROAD TRIP!)
In some ways this is a win-win--I think!

This forum is a group of good folks.