Magneto not working

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Magneto not working
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willis Jenkins on Saturday, November 07, 2015 - 06:58 pm:

What, in your opinions, do you guys think should be deducted from the price of a car, that is for sale, for a magneto that does not work and a different year engine? A 1920 sedan with a 1924 engine that runs on battery, but not magneto. I'm just looking for what you guys think should be deducted for these issues. Example: $500 off..... $1,000 off for non-working magneto? And for a different engine: $1,000 off or more?
These are just examples and would appreciate your input.

Thank you,
Willis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Saturday, November 07, 2015 - 07:11 pm:

It's not really a problem that the car has a later engine especially since a 1920 and 1924 engine are identical anyway. A new mag ring is around $200 plus you will have to remove the engine, recharge the magnets, replace the brass screws and the spools, etc. More than likely the car will have many different problems. Inspect it carefully.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Saturday, November 07, 2015 - 07:13 pm:

I would say that the magneto not working, but all parts present, would be a $500 lower value based on worst case labor needed to fix the issue(s) causing the failure.

If all the magnets are gone and the coil ring is not there it would be a $1000 problem. No coils, add $275. Missing timer, add $75.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, November 07, 2015 - 09:11 pm:

Stephen, our Canadian sourced cars are physically different for 1920 and 1924. The earlier cars have two side plates while the 24 has the one piece side plate. I had a bit of difficulty finding an earlier block when I built my 1920 buckboard. Is US production different?

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Saturday, November 07, 2015 - 09:54 pm:

Well if the internal mag is dead cheapest thing be put on a distributor or just run on battery


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Sunday, November 08, 2015 - 09:09 am:

Or use Tru-Fire - my '20 that I bought 3 yrs. ago came with it and has no mag. Or an e-timer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, November 08, 2015 - 09:25 am:

The discussion was regarding lost value. Original Model T ignition is reliable and one of the things that makes a Model T interesting. Lose the original ignition and you are hurting the value of the car. We like Model T's here, not '71 Chevy Vegas.

Sure, you can get a Model T to run using non - original solutions that would still detract from the value. Why spend money on a crutch?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Sunday, November 08, 2015 - 09:52 am:

After rebuilding the magneto on my spare '27 engine for my project Tudor. I think $500 might be a little light (or maybe a lotta light). If this guy is lucky, the mag post is just bad. If not, the headaches just start. Considering the hassle of pulling the engine and disassembling everything, it wouldn't make a lot of sense not to rebuild everything (recharged magnets, new coil ring, etc). Then there's the joy of playing with shims to get the flywheel magnets just the right distance from the coil ring. Unless you have the proper shop equipment to get the job done, that would necessitate taking it to someone else. And most folks don't work for free (particularly if the know what they are doing). My guess the value of getting all the proper work done would easily cost a grand or better. So I'd for sure deduct at least $1K from the offer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Doolittle on Sunday, November 08, 2015 - 10:18 am:

Royce hit the nail on the head and the price deduction suggested by Kevin is close, but may be a little light.

After all, the seller had a personal choice to make- "do I fix it myself or let the buyer fix it". The seller chose to let the seller fix it, therefore he/she must reduce the price.

Truefire, E-timer, or running on battery would not keep me from buying the T, but the value has been hurt by any of these alterations.

Just my opinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn - Lincoln, NE on Sunday, November 08, 2015 - 10:26 am:

The question is subjective, subtract from what starting point? The owner may already be asking a reasonable price based on his knowledge that work needs to be done on the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, November 08, 2015 - 11:01 am:

Mike,

The value of the original ignition system components we are discussing is absolute, and unrelated to the asking price of the car. Willis is asking us what it would take to rectify the absence or failure of the original system.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Sunday, November 08, 2015 - 11:24 am:

Royce, I do agree with you, just offering a "quick solution" rather than pulling the engine, etc. if he should buy it and want to get off of running the thing on battery only.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, November 08, 2015 - 01:33 pm:

The condition of the body is much more important than the magneto. If it's a really a nice car someone else will buy it while you are fretting about the magneto,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, November 08, 2015 - 04:31 pm:

I agree about letting the body dictate the price.
A 20 sedan that doesn't have a good tight body would cost more time and effort to restore than an open car.

For me rebuilding an engine is easier to do than to restore a closed car in the early 20's era.

And if the body is tight and the wood in good shape having to repair the mag is the easy part.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Georgetown TX on Sunday, November 08, 2015 - 06:55 pm:

Again, the question was regarding cost to fix a magneto, not the price of a car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, November 08, 2015 - 07:19 pm:

I agree with the above. If the wood in the body is rotted, the whole body will need to be restored. If there is some minor rust, it can be repaired. The major estimate of price would be on condition of body and upholstery. Also would depend on whether the chassis is correct for the car and the wheels are any good. If you are looking for a driver, a later engine would be typical of a car which has been repaired. It would be inappropriate for a car to have an earlier engine, but quite feasible to have a later engine. Makes no difference for a driver, but would take off points if the car were in a contest being judged. If the engine runs good without knocks, you could leave it as is and run on battery or a distributor until you pull the engine and transmission for some other reason, and then rebuild the magneto. In fact if you are good at do it yourself work, you could even rewind an old magneto coil and have it ready to install when you have the engine apart. It has been my experience that most cars will need some major work on engine or transmission at some time after purchase, and that would be a good time to fix anything you choose to fix.

I would think 500 to 1,000 about right and remember that if the car has a distributor, you might be able to sell it to someone else and recover some of the money it takes to repair.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Sunday, November 08, 2015 - 08:32 pm:

Well value is a complete car or truck and how's she runs but how that's done can always be fixed
If a good runner I enjoy it


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willis Jenkins on Sunday, November 08, 2015 - 09:51 pm:

Thank you to all who responded. Most were to the subject at hand. Some confirmed my estimates were close on the magneto. Some mentioned the body's wood that there are 2 issues there. It is all helping with my decision.

Thanks again,
Willis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Monday, November 09, 2015 - 07:41 am:

John said: "Truefire, E-timer, or running on battery would not keep me from buying the T, but the value has been hurt by any of these alterations."

I agree, but to see some of the ads for cars for sale, you'd think these things were a plus. With some of the hype, you'd think some of these things even make the paint shinier.:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom 30 miles N of Memphis TN on Monday, November 09, 2015 - 08:25 am:

I agree with the $500-$1000 deduction from the cost of a car with a working mag. Last one I did for anyone was $500 for labor. He bought the coil, gaskets, etc. I agreed to do the bands as well since it was all apart. I think he was into it for $850 to fix that problem.

Regardless of what folks will tell you about a "quick fix" such as distributor, 12-volt, or etimer, there are no quick "fixes". I've torn down two engines now that ran well on battery only to find missing retainer plates and broken magnets. Had they continued to operate till point of complete failure the cost would have gone quite high.

A guy can fix the mag himself for about $350 and a weekend. Or, he can opt for a $350 distributor or etimer and run it till the flywheel comes apart. Now, he will have the $350 to fix the mag + the $350 for the quick fix plus the cost to repair whatever other damage occurs.

Plan on fixing it right and before you drive it. Just my opinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn - Lincoln, NE on Monday, November 09, 2015 - 09:01 am:

I don't disagree with the value you have stated Royce, but if the seller is asking $500 for the car do you think he will deduct $500 because the mag is not working? That is why I stated that the question is subjective. Now if he is asking 15k I would start looking for deductions. But again your estimate is correct on the value of a mag.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Monday, November 09, 2015 - 05:50 pm:

I still say if it's a nice car with good body and upholstery, the later 24 engine and magneto are a secondary issue.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willis Jenkins on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 08:55 pm:

Okay then, I have another T in my sights. This being a 1923 sedan with an October 1919 engine running on True-Fire. I am a purist at heart, but willing to accept something's that I can change back over time while still able to enjoy the car. While someone mentioned earlier that sellers think True-Fire is a bonus, I believe in deducting the $1,000 for bringing it back to an operational magneto. How does having an earlier engine affect this cars value? Someone mentioned earlier that a '20 sedan with a '24 engine can be expected, but a '23 sedan with a '19 engine........ I believe in either case I think $500 off is appropriate. Now, this is just my feeling. Yours may differ and I would appreciate your thoughts. So far, this car I am more excited about as the earlier car came down to wood issues (in case any of you were wondering what happened there). I am collecting all the information I can from both the seller and you guys.

As always, thank you for time,
Willis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 09:25 pm:

Umm, guys...the question should be WHY is the magneto not working, assuming that everything is wired correctly an all. Even with weak magnets the magneto will work...kind'a. There are only two possibilities a magneto doesn't work, 1, there are no magnets or there isn't a coil ring or both in the first place and 2, there are a couple of plates (possibly more) missing from the magnets. In which case it's a time bomb waiting to go off.

If you've got options, I'd say go with another choice, unless you don't mind taking this one apart to see what the hell is up with the magneto. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, November 14, 2015 - 11:25 am:

I don't think the slightly earlier 1919 engine is a problem provided it runs and drives well. If it had a four dip pan then I would say no problem at all, so long as the VIN on the engine matches the VIN on the title. You can always install a one piece valve cover on the earlier engine if that bothers you.

The True Fire might bring $100 or $200 on eBay, so that would defray some of the cost of finding / rebuilding a good set of Ford coils and a real Ford timer.


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