I have the original dust pans from my 22 touring cut off that's been in the family since new. Should I install the dust shields or is it a waste of time?
They may save some part that rattles loose and would have fallen off without them, so why not?
Most of them went the same way as the battery box lids. They are a nuisance and get in the way when you need to access areas. That said, fit them if you want.
Allan from down under.
I have both engine pans on both of my cars and find them to be no nuisance at all. As Roger alluded, they have caught parts which loosened and would otherwise have been lost and the left engine pan is a convenient location for the oil can to ride. Back in the day the engine pans kept road debris from entering the engine bay.
Some claim they also help in cooling.
Would Henry have used them if not needed?? We have a 1914 touring and with no louvers in the hood you have a wind tunnel through the radiator and engine compartment.Do not take my word for it though,if you have a early T remove the tin sheild between the dash and hogshead and see for yourself! Bud in Wheeler,Mi.
Some of mine have them and others do not. I find no difference one way or the other. I think it is more a matter of choice than necessity
They are the vital heart and soul of the Model T. It can't possibly run well without them.
But I do wonder why they were left from all cost cutting.. Maybe because they helped divert some mud from the engine bay, considering the roads back then?
The heart and soul of my T are hanging on the wall in the basement!
I have them on my 22 touring. Whether they are helpful or not, if they are in place, they will remain with the car. Placed on a shelf they will likely someday be permanently separated.
My roadster has them and on the dirt roads I run on they keep most of the mud, puddle splash and rocks out of the engine bay. Good idea, PK.
I have them on four out of five Model T's in my collection. Just have not got around to installing them on the latest addition. They do not interfere with any maintenance that I have noticed.
They do catch and collect items that vibrate loose or get forgotten by me. I have captured several parts and tools over the years.
Definitely a good idea to use them. They keep water from the front wheels from splashing up on the ignition when driving in the rain. No drawbacks that I can see.
When running on a very hot day my normally cool 12 was getting hot and the floor board at the wife's feet measured 132* F. With no louvers in the early hoods the air flowing thru the radiator has a hard time getting out.
I removed the right side pan thinking that the exhaust manifold heat could get out under the car easier. I believe it helped but now I tie a safety wire to my air cleaner and oil filler cap just in case they come loose.
Have thought about replacing it just for looks liking the authentic look.
I have a couple thoughts on this topic that may or may not be worth anything,.......you decide. I'll do my best to avoid one of my long-winded "epistles",...... I promise!
Back in the '60's, I was a draftsman (when there were still such things) for the International Harvester Advance Engineering and Research Center in Hinsdale, Illinois. Also at that same period in my life, I was a member of the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve, from '63 to '69. Here's a couple things I remember:
The engineers for whom I was one of the detail draftsman for, determined that approx. one third of the cooling of a 6-cyl. engine in a particular tractor came just from the "air-wash" back over the engine from the fan which pulled air thru' the radiator. That "air'wash" back over the engine was partially dependent upon sheet metal pans that forced the air flow back alongside both sides of the engine.
And here's one I remember vividly, due to getting in trouble with a particularly bad-dispositioned gunnery sergeant in the Marine Corps. I was "Company Driver" for my unit, and on a field training exercise I accompanied field marching troops, driving a 6 x 6 loaded with equipment. The "Gunny" continually screamed at me to "open those (blankety-blank) side panels on that (blankety-blank) truck so it doesn't overheat !"
At the next week-end drill back at the armory, I (very respectfully) showed "grumpy Gunny" in the manual for that particular type vehicle where it stressed how important it was during hot weather to keep the side panels "CLOSED" in order to prevent the engine overheating, as the closed side panels aided in engine-cooling by forcing the air-wash back alongside both sides of the engine.
"Grumpy Gunny" read that and looked up at me and merely said,......"well, I guess you know your job marine!" And that's about the closest thing to any kind of compliment I ever got from him,.....and certainly no apology,.....(not that I expected one).
Anyway, these two "experiences" came to mind when I read this thread concerning Model T dust pans, especially David Dewey's and Ken DeLong's posts in this thread,......FWIW,.......harold
I left mine off for a while after installing the engine. I didn't like it and put them back on. Without the pans, the engine compartment looks more like a tractor than a car.They probably help keep dust out of the carburetor too.
Dad was old enough to remember when T's were new. He grew up working on them. He told me many times, that the engine pans were the first thing that people removed and discarded. When he saw our Fordor in 1960 it still had the pans. He figured it was very original, because "Nobody ever put those things back on".
Ed, that is exactly what I suspect has led to the scarcity of original pans. I put them on my roadster buckboard when I first built it, wanting to make it absolutely authentic. They came off when I had to remove the generator. I am glad they were of when having trouble with sediment in the carby fuel bowl while on the road one day. They are still off, some 25 years later.
The battery box lids went the same way, after I had trouble with a short in the wiring on another car. Floor boards out, wrenches to get the hold down clamps off before I could get at the battery terminals to make the disconnect. The hold down clamps now hold the battery down, leaving the terminals exposed for easy access. I know an isolating switch/fuses etc will provide protection, but if being authentic is the aim, the lid is a curse.
Allan from down under.
Ed,back while in high school in the fifties when model Ts were just fun old used cars , my neighbor bought a very nice original 26 touring. He told me that he had a good low mileage one because it still had the pans. He said that it was a good sign that the engine had not been pulled. Your response reminded me of Bill's remarks.
Gentleman, I feel that the engine pans and the transmission pans were installed for cooling. When I bought my 1911 26 years ago it did not have the pans on it. On a tour the car would get hot before noon every day. I would have to carry water with me. When I restored the car I put the pans on. I do not have to carry water anymore.
In Kanab,Utah, We drove 185 miles one day on a tour. The car did not get hot.
Peter, had you installed the pans before you did the restoration, and the car ran cooler, then your feelings may have some veracity. Having done a restoration and then fitting the pans, you have made other alterations which could have an effect. You could now remove them again, and see if it makes a difference.
I put my 24 tourer on a dyno to check its power output. Then we fitted a straight bore Holley NH carb and ran it up again to measure the output. Then we fitted a Z head and repeated the process. The total increased output was considerable. Had we fitted the carb and head before running the car up, we would have no idea what part each modification made to the increased power output.
Making one change at a time allows some better interpretation of the results.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
I was given a set of 26-27 pans and was thinking about installing them. The Ford manual isn't very clear where the bolts go that mount to the engine. Do they mount to the underside where the nuts are? Also, what is the order of assembly? Does it go engine pan, followed by splash shield, followed by front fender, followed by hood shelf? Thanks.
Jim, from my distant memory from when I last had anything to do with them, the pans are held below the frame rail by the same bolts which hold the hood shelves. This will tell you which engine bolts are used to hold the inner edge to the motor. This edge goes under the pan rail.
I hope my memory is correct.
Allan from down under.
It's like you said Allan. And be careful not to over tighten the hood shelf nuts or you can easily bend the hood shelves.
Here are the pans on my roadster. Arrows show where the tabs are bolted to the engine.
I haven't used all the holes for attaching to the frame rails. I think the hood shelf bolts are sufficient.
For the Improved Car, '26-'27, the pans are held with carriage head bolts thru the hood shelf. Those two bolts are noted as "C" in this figure 69 from Service Bulletin, Sept. 1925.
Lockwashers and nuts on the underside holding the pans, the engine side has tabs as shown in the photos by Steve.
Pans are the last thing on, and they are handy, correct, and should be on the Ford T, otherwise looking in all you can see is the pavement between the frame and the engine!
Ford Service Manual
I see someone said they had trouble with the pan being in the way when removing a generator?
I can't see how this would be the case, the pans in no way interfere with removal or installation of the generator or starter.
Dan and Steve:
Thank you so much for the explanation and photos. Knowing that they attach under the frame and are the last things to go on was extremely helpful!
The starter side engine pan only sometimes needs to be lowered a tad to remove the starter by tilting the starter down a bit, that is because the long length of the starter shaft if the starter is pulled straight out will make the starter end casting hit the steering column.
But easy to loosen the two end fasteners, and tip the engine pan down just enough. And that engine pan keeps you from dropping the heavy starter to the floor too!
Lowering the end of the engine pan a bit allows one to slip the starter down between the frame and engine too, have done it several times.
The interesting thing about the right pan is that the two holes that mount to the frame do not line up with the holes in the frame and the hole for the carburetor is not in the right spot. This could be due to the Atlas manifold or perhaps that the Canadian cars' holes lined up differently; irregardless, it appears that the hole is designed for an NH. I have double-checked the pan with those that Langs sells and this is a later model pan, with a circular, not an oval hole. I will take some pics when I get home tonight.
Royce, you have forgotten that on RHD cars the steering column gets well in the way when removing the generator. On some RHD cars it is even necessary to drop the intake manifold. The generator comes out through the bottom, so the pan has to be completely removed. You guys get it easy!
Allan from down under.
You are right - RH cars need special procedures that are not the same, the design was not ideal here for sure. I only thought in terms of US built cars, forgot your location.