Heard a rumor that the OCF staff will be....

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Heard a rumor that the OCF staff will be....
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 06:12 am:

I just picked up on a rumor that the Old Car Festival staff will be severely limiting Model T's next year. It is said they will be rejecting acceptance of any Model T that is not painted period correct. Anybody out there hear anything on this? If true I'm assuming they would have to eliminate most speedsters from the event.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 08:38 am:

Interesting info Don, as I'm still miffed as to how a '13 that was painted ARMY GREEN could've made the "top 3" in the '12-'15 yr. award category (or whatever grouping that was-might've been wider).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 09:21 am:

If grandmaw would allow our 14 would be painted bright red which i think look's good on a brass car? I think it's the greatest gathering of real old cars trucks cycles there is but you can go even rusty just be the real thing!!To me it's worth the effort because there has to be a place for Real instead of fibberblast!! Bud in Wheeler,Mi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 10:38 am:

Good to see they're working hard to insure that the event stays as authentic as possible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 11:00 am:

I love rumors. Here's another one .... everyone has to show up NAKED !

Make sure you pass that one around ! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 11:06 am:

Burger, considering the demographics of old car owners, that should cut into attendance quite a lot.... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 01:45 pm:

Actually, correct color has always been a requirement. The problem comes when deciding what is a correct color. Fortunately, my car is black and that is easy to assess. Speedsters and other modified vehicles are a much more open category.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 03:16 pm:

Dick,
I was thinking the same thing!!!
An old friend of mine (very old, older than me! & very conservative) once told me this; " I hear that to increase security at airports, you have to go through naked. I think there will still be stick-ups though!"
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 03:48 pm:



(Message edited by touringtom on November 13, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 04:05 pm:

How blue is too blue? Dark colors on early Fords were almost black. You had to see them in bright sunlight to know if they were green or blue. How do you decide if the color is dark enough?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 04:07 pm:

Steve, that is my question. Also would it only be USA colors? That is why I'm hoping someone with connections can clarify.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 04:10 pm:

Also, there have been in the past cars with wild modern colors. Mostly the speedsters it could be a target for them, I suppose.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willis Jenkins on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 05:55 pm:

I have not understood for the last 6 years or so why they allow that neon green and purple speedster that a young woman always drives. Clearly not even close with period colors! She must know someone important, which would not be right.

Willis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Eyre on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 05:56 pm:

The green 13 was mine didn't mean to upset any one. I sprayed it several years ago when that color was acceptable for 13. I know of two others near my serial number and I admit they are darker green. They are complete original cars with complete original interior. Whose to say who is correct I wasn't there at the factory when it was sprayed. Regardless when I show a car I never get upset win or lose. The car is the real trophy and it is going home with me me at the end of the day. Have a great evening everyone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 06:08 pm:

I've worked OCF as narrator for 35 years and on the participant approval committee for nearly as many, although I no longer approve vehicles for acceptance.

Part of the "charter" of The Henry Ford is as an educational institution and as such, part of OCFs responsibility is to make sure the vehicles are as accurate as possible: as they came out of the factory, including colors. Although, it is recognized that may not always be possible with some vehicle items, period-to-the-car accessories are acceptable.

Non-modified cars were expected to comply, this is one reason the OCF staff requires photos of the cars. It is recognized, and was debated by the approval staff, that certain vehicles, such as authentic speedsters custom built limousines, etc., are open to interpretation. With some research, in most cases, it is not too difficult to discover factory colors.

I agree with Tim that not only should an army green Model T not have been accepted as a participant, but it probably should not have won (with apologies to the judges, who, I think do a terriffic job.) Nor should a yellow and brown Dodge Brothers been accepted and some other vehicles.

There also are some cars with the wrong bodies that, according to the educational aspect, should not have been allowed.

That being said, and again, I am no longer a part of the approval committee, IF the powers that be are limiting Model T's because of color (and this is only a guess) they may be doing it for a few reasons. It takes months of behind the scenes preparation and reams of paper work to pull off OCF; it takes an army of workers (some volunteers) to work the event and that is not cheap; they may be running out of room in the Village.

Just my humble opinion based on some experience. But all that being said, as those of you who go to OCF know what I mean, there is NOTHING like it ANYWHERE in the world. Let's just enjoy the remarkable weekend it is and be thankful for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Eyre on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 06:34 pm:

Not army green Brewster Green. Looks black in the shade very brownish green in the sun. I'm not going to argue about is it correct or isn't what I'm saying is don't award it if it isn't worthy. I have been at this restoration thing about 35 years also which is neither here nor there. The car has a pedigree a mile long in the MTFCI the AACA and yes with the OCF . In years past I have served as MTFCI technical editor and BOD member and MTFCI Past President 2007. What is correct and what isn"t at has changed a dozen times in the time I have restored cars. I"m not going to ever say turn down a younger car person with interest. Look around folks want the hobby to die? Let's keep everybody coming and happy. I'll bring something else next year maybe an 12 torpedo or a 11 commercial roadster or a 1909 water pump touring car or. 1915 authentic speedster or something else I have laying around in the shop. If anybody would like to talk model t"s at any time contact me off line.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 07:14 pm:

Being somewhat involved with the HCCA, I see this discussion come around often. I often state something to the effect that "Drawing this line is not difficult. It is impossible." "You cannot treat a Lozier the same as you treat a Stanley Steamer, as you need to treat a model T Ford. They are built totally differently, original parts were made totally differently. Replacement parts are completely different situations."
All restorations use tires, paint and upholstery that are not made like what was used originally. Even the wood we use to replace rotted away original wood may not be the same kind of wood.
Due to some of life's realities, I cannot do the quality of restoration I would like to do (time and money I do NOT have). But I have always tried to make my cars look as "era correct" as I reasonably can. But that is me. That is MY choice. I accept that many people make changes and use parts that I would not. Yes, sometimes those cars become the center of discussion and even nasty comments by some people (sometimes even me). Mostly, as long as they basically represent what they were originally, they are accepted. Mostly.
I thank and applaud anyone that has the time, and uses it to help make this the tremendous hobby it is. Without them, there would be no wonderful national tours or great events like the OCF. And I generally won't criticize the decisions they make.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 07:37 pm:

I'm wondering "if" it is true that the OCF will limit entrants, that it is being done because of the huge turnout at this years event? The engineers building adjacent to the parking area is now being used by Ford again. That is why the gates opened later than prior years. That parking lot was almost at the max and so was the handicap parking lot. Their solution may be to shrink the size of the event by eliminating those cars deemed borderline. Just my thoughts. They do such a wonderful job organizing and accommodating so many rigs and their vintage cars. I can hope they feel recognized for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Macleod on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 09:12 pm:

If I may chime in here, I too know the Eyre car quite well. I have looked it over very carefully and at one time tried to buy it myself. Guys, whether or not you agree with the color choice it has been judged by the best and tends to win every time out.

Interestingly, the car is only a touch darker than the original paint on my '13 Touring. We all know paint from Ford seems to darken over time so I think the color is spot on. If we really want to be picky about things I would suggest that you talk with Mark directly about the car instead of blasting away on the open forum.

If we really want to confound things, consider this. My '13 clearly was green when new. It still has most of its original paint under a sloppy coat of now peeling off black paint. ALL of car was green; hood, body, splash aprons and fenders. I would be proud to show the car to anyone who doubts this claim.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Miller on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 10:23 pm:

I have seen the '13 in question and it is beautiful. I find it annoying that those that don't win tend to gripe. Maybe those that gripe just might want to seek the restoration services of the guy that restored/owns the car and you might have a better chance of winning. His restorations win yr after yr in multiple classes. Most of us were not there when these were new. What about wrong motors, wacky yellow pinstriping, no pinstriping, wrong interior, and, and, and..all need to be scrutinized to the fullest as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Friday, November 13, 2015 - 11:57 pm:

I appreciate the efforts and results of people who strive to properly restore cars using intensive research on all the bits and pieces. However, I'm really glad that I've never intended to take my cars to the OCF or any event that involves judging. Life is way too short for me to get that wrapped around the axle. I like my cars and have them to drive and to be enjoyed by myself and any others that like old cars or just "remembering when". If folks want to get upset or look down on me or my car because it has taillights and turn signals they can take them off right after they give me green money for about 10K more than the car is worth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Saturday, November 14, 2015 - 12:28 am:

When I run my Model T touring down the road people point at it and say things like "Wow, look at that great old car! Hey mister, what kind of car is it? Man, it's really neat!" Then I honk my non-stock horn, wave and smile as I go on down the road! When that happens I feel better than anybody possibly could standing on the lawn at Pebble Beach worried sick about whether their million dollar car is going to get a fancy piece of crystal, or a golden cup or some other gaudy piece of junk. I have yet, never heard, anyone say anything bad about my cars and if they do, I'll tell them to keep it to themselves. My Model T hobby is totally different than the people who die young, spending all that money trying to win some little "pretty"! How can a person possibly be proud when the only role they've played in winning these dog and pony shows is opening their wallet to purchase a winner?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Saturday, November 14, 2015 - 12:36 am:

I am with you, Mike. Car shows and all that "scene" fill me with the urge to defecate.
I don't mind the cars, but the whole mentality of "competition" ??? It's just so contrary to
the "cool" of old. No comprendé.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Kramer on Saturday, November 14, 2015 - 07:45 am:

Easiest way to turn off new people to our hobby: tell them their car isn't correct or good enough to be seen!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Macleod on Saturday, November 14, 2015 - 08:29 am:

And the best way to turn someone on to the hobby is to let them drive the car. My view is there is room for both aspects of the hobby; the drivers and the show car people. Personally my preference is to restore a car to top national condition, win as much as possible then take it out and then drive the wheels off it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Saturday, November 14, 2015 - 08:45 am:

Here's a pretty good example; I was asked recently if I could bring my T to a 1920's themed party for a nice couple I met at a car show. They were thrilled that I would bring my T to their house for their guests to get photos with. Everyone was dressed in period costume and there was old music playing. These young folk went all out and were really excited that I agreed to come. I said I would contact some other members of my club who lived fairly close to see if they could attend as well (more T's is always better!). Although most had prior commitments and the weather was forecast to rain, one T owner, who I never met nor seen at any of the club outings, sounded rather indignant and asked "Will they be touching my car?" What good is a toy if all you do is stare at it in your garage???? Not only do people touch my car, I let them SIT in it!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux Grayling Michigan on Saturday, November 14, 2015 - 08:50 am:

I don't believe that the OCF is restrictive in the least. The village has held a high standard of historical accuracy since it was built. That's the whole point. It is a museum. It is a place like no other. Nothing can compare to the OCF experience. The organizers do a great job. I don't want to see a chromed-out fiberglass T bucket with a Chevy engine with Mr Gasket valve covers there. Those cars have their place, and Greenfield Village is not it. The OCF guidelines allow modern safety items, at their discretion. they understand that the cars are to be driven.
I did see two cars there this year, that I would not have included, if it were my choice. Maybe they are the reason for a change?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, November 14, 2015 - 08:57 am:

This is the reason why people get turned off by the so called 'experts' who want to be period correct.
This hobby is supposed to be for everyone but when you see this stuff this is a definite turn off for more than a few people.

There ought to be a T club for folks who just buy a T that someone else built so they can arrive in a $40.000 trailer and have a 'hired hand' back it off their trailer while the owner lights up his $50 dollar cigar and brags to everybody that can hear how wonderful his 'correct' car is. And this guy is usually the judge. Or maybe its his brother in law.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Saturday, November 14, 2015 - 08:57 am:

Once again the either i can not, will not,or have never even seen the OCF are spreading it thick!! THE OCF is about fun and enjoying the Old Cars Trucks Motorcycles and on and on. There is no judging unless you sign up for it!!! Often people who do judging it's more about parking in the center and finding about your own car than winning!! With our truck breaking two years in a row our OCF was a little short but still perfect!! The OCF to me is to see great cars and also Great Friends!! We met the Eyre's 20 years ago when Phil opened his home and garage and invited our club!! Great top notch people,and their Stynoski Winners seem to say they know about model T's!! Come see the OCF before you pass judgement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bud in Wheeler,Mi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Macleod on Saturday, November 14, 2015 - 09:10 am:

I would add that the Eyre car was indeed professionally restored and is driven onto the show field by a professional driver...the owner himself. Indeed Mark probably knows more about restoring these cars than anyone alive today. If you doubt that look at the awards, or better yet ride in a car he's worked on. Proof is in pudding.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Saturday, November 14, 2015 - 09:17 am:

I brought my speedster once. Then they sent out an application that stated my car should be period correct, so I figured they no longer want my car there. I am not removing the decals.

I also do not care for the green and purple speedster, but the young lady is nice and that is her car. She is supporting the OCF and that is what is important.

We have people in the Model Train hobby whom we call rivet counters. They will complain that there are 7 rivets on the fender of your HO size engine and there should be 8. Get real.

If a person wins the Stynoski and did most of the work themselves then the deserve praise. If they have a bundle of cash and paid someone to do it for them, then they are just showing off.

The OCF is still a great show. I hope to make it next year. And it supports our hobby in many ways.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, November 14, 2015 - 09:38 am:

Do I want to see a beautifully restored 1912 town car that looks like it just rolled out of the showroom, or do I want to see a battered old TT hauling firewood? I don't recall ever seeing anything in the Bible or the Constitution saying you can't appreciate both. They both have their place. The Village, as Ed says, is a museum. It's the place for museum quality cars to gather. I've never been to the OCF, but I intend to go. I hope I can do it in a Model T that will fit right in. I also intend to finish my TT project and use as a working truck to haul firewood. I see no conflict between those two things.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Saturday, November 14, 2015 - 09:52 am:

Don't misunderstand my point. I believe model t lovers are into it for different reasons. It's wonderful that people spend time and money making their cars period correct. It really does preserve our history. And I have a great appreciation for what these people do. I love that somebody is leaving the Rip Van Winkle Ford as it was found. I like that a great attempt was made to correctly restore the number 220 car.

But please don't turn your nose up at one of my model T's if I don't have an absolute correct car. I love and drive my model T's and strive to make them as correct as I can. But if I have to put the wrong color spark plug wires on one of my cars to get it down the road, that's what I do. That's my way of being part of a wonderful hobby that should have room for all of us.

I also have a "non-correct" 1925 (?) Model T speedster. People love it. They point at it and smile. I tell them it's built along the lines of what a model t race car would have looked like "back in the day". The kids love to honk the ahooga horn. Old people, well older than me (is there such thing?) like to have their photo with it. Model T purists turn their nose up at the 12 volt alternator on it. That makes me smile. But the one I get the biggest kick out of is the one member of our club who quite possibly is old enough to have been a server at the last supper, looks at my speedster and tells me the next car he builds is going to be a speedster like mine. This from a guy who's built and owned correct collector cars most of his life.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Saturday, November 14, 2015 - 10:00 am:

Steve, hopefully you can bring your TT one day. The driving speeds at the village make a TT right at home. And nobody would look down a truck if it's a little rough looking.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Saturday, November 14, 2015 - 10:19 am:

No one has yet to say anything about Wallnut Grove which hold the demonstrations and car games.If you have had a early car for years and never lite your lites Jon Crane might just show you how!! The gas lite tour is great fun and hundreds of people come in just to see it!!! Race your model T?? Fast drag race or s l o w race?? Get a chanch to meet Rob and get a ride in a model K/640!!! If you like railroad go in the working round house!! On and on it cant be beat and you can meet some great people and maybe a jerk now and then. Bibbs are great peroid dress!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Saturday, November 14, 2015 - 11:31 pm:

Bud (that's Kenneth W. DeLong) said it well and I agree with him.

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Sunday, November 15, 2015 - 07:42 am:

I hope no one is shooting the messenger here. I was simply trying to explain what the Village might be doing and their possible reasoning behind it based on my prior experience, IF the rumor is true.

I totally agree that anyone with any old car can do anything they want with it -- short of destruction, of course. If anyone has seen any of my cars at OCF, you know I believe that. My T is a go car, not a show car, and that's what I want. My fire engine is in desperate need of a paint job, but it runs and pumps great and kids of all ages love it. And that's fine. If it were painted all pretty with gold leafing, I probably would not let the little kids get in and have fun. But that's what I want.

I am very supportive of getting younger people involved and not discouraging them. Let's face it, none of us are getting younger and we need young folks to get and stay interested in the old cars. That's why I encourage them to go ahead and get behind the wheel of the T or the fire engine.

But I think the Village thinks there is a place for non-authentic cars and OCF is not that place, based on their charge to be educational. And there is a lot to be said about that in regards to our younger collectors. They should know what's right and what isn't and to appreciate both.

Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Sunday, November 15, 2015 - 07:58 am:

Well said Marty, I didn't start this post to hear this kind of criticism of others cars. I for one would NEVER post my negative opinions on the forum because I wouldn't want the owner or restorer to be offended by it. The post has taken a bad turn when its intention was to verify any true to the acceptance change, plain and simple. I happen to know the people and their contribution to the OCF is huge with unwavering dedication. I would suggest that Chris should consider deleting this in its entirety.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jon Crane on Sunday, November 15, 2015 - 08:49 am:

Bud
Thank you for the reference You and I haven't had a good drag race on OCF the activity field in a number of years. I throw out the challenge..lets tune'em up and have a race at 2pm Saturday. Anybody else in for it? I think I have an old bowling trophy for the winner!
Jon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Sunday, November 15, 2015 - 08:59 am:

Jon, I'll go for a drag race....see you at 2:00pm Saturday at the 2016 OCF! Let the fun begin...

Bud, are you in for this?

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jon Crane on Sunday, November 15, 2015 - 09:14 am:

OK...Henry Ford beat Winton and won a crystal bowl...Edsel Ford2 tells a humorous story about that event. We will "race" for a Mason Jar...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Sunday, November 15, 2015 - 10:30 am:

Guys,of course i'm up for a race even if our team is handicraped! Jon is very tall and if he leans forward he will win! Keith is very streemlined [with no hat] so he also has a advantage! If i can get the course changed to incluede a left hand turn i might do well with my weight advantage on the left side? The only thing wrong with the OCF is you allways miss talking to so many old friends because it's such a buisy time!! Don,I think this is a good thread because often we may all learn something. Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Sunday, November 15, 2015 - 10:51 am:

I'm in, for a race that is. Last fall we jumped into one of the novelty races. My passenger (don't recall his name, a MTFCA forum member who happened to jump in for a ride) held a cup of water on a board while we raced other contestants. We came in second, by half a hood length, to a 1919 V-8.

Something that should be mentioned, judging is not required,many my guess is a small percentage of OCF entrants participate in judging. I haven't done it, and don't intend to.

OCF is one of the two best events I've participated in over the years, and until you go, it's impossible to explain how incredible it really is. I often call it "an early twentieth century traffic jam."

Let the races begin.......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Sunday, November 15, 2015 - 10:54 am:

Don, thanks. I commented just to try and clarify a possible rumor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Sunday, November 15, 2015 - 01:38 pm:

If there is a race for a mason jar will it be filled with moon shine? If so I may just have to put in for vacation time :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Macleod on Sunday, November 15, 2015 - 04:59 pm:

I too am up for a race. In my opinion OCF is one of the two events, Hershey being the other, that are the best old car events in the world. While I like a concourse event a lot OCF has them whipped in the fun department.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Sunday, November 15, 2015 - 05:06 pm:

I think there are 4 lanes so the race is on!! I wonder how far we will have to spot Rob with that old car??? Bud who had both the A and T out today!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Sunday, November 15, 2015 - 08:21 pm:

" ... and nobody would look down on a truck if it's a little rough looking."

==============================================

Well, they should ! Only lowlifes and abject losers wallow in those murky shallows !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jon Crane on Sunday, November 15, 2015 - 08:28 pm:

What a good problem to have...too many participants. Its a problem, but a solvable and good problem. Seeing all those trailers and remembering the good times..How soon can I register and load up for next year.

And now a challenge race.


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