1925 Front Spindle

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: 1925 Front Spindle
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bryan C on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 11:37 am:

Does this look correct to everyone? It's the drivers front spindle. I have the spindle arm going up and in with the Ford logo down and the hole is generally lined up with the spindle body holes. Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 01:06 pm:

I'm no expert, but it doesn't look right to me, the end of the arm is almost directly behind the kingpin. Is it possible the spindle is twisted?? & how on earth would that happen without leaving some evidence?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 01:46 pm:

I have a spindle body (not sure which side) with the exact same malformation ! Was sold to a friend as "NOS" - now I know why - not enough thread on the tie rod to get the front wheels in alignment ! Tie rod arm should be 90 degrees from the spindle unless there was a "special application". WTF !???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bryan C on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 01:54 pm:

I assume the king pin is the main body hole where I put the brass bushings?
I thought about asking about that earlier actually but it didn't look like anything was broken or twisted. My passenger side spindle is not like that at all. I just assumed that's how it went.
I may have the wrong terminology here but the hole for the spindle arm on the passenger side looks to be exactly 90 degrees from the actual spindle while this one is more like 75.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 02:24 pm:

I'm not sure what those are but they're the wrong parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 02:29 pm:

This problem happened from time to time in Ford production it seems?
Steve Jelf had one: https://www.google.se/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.mtfca.com/discus/ messages/331880/338322.html%3F1359860896&ved=0CBoQFjAAahUKEwi3mpyQmJjJAhUEOg8KHW 1zCGk&usg=AFQjCNFxDT1QBRUwmjDPw7zfo_mm04_NwA&sig2=dTLdENasdH2y1qgQDYIvrA


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 03:01 pm:

Steve Tomaso - I took particular note of your 11/17 - 01:46 pm post above in this thread:

That '23 Roadster Pickup with the little matching trailer that I bought at the Bob McDonald estate sale immediately came to mind when I read your post. The car had an odd "feel" to it like the front wheels were "fighting each other". I found that the front end of that car was way out of line by somewhat over an inch as far as "toe-in" and I had trouble trying to correct the problem. I was able to get the toe-in much closer to where it should be, but as you mentioned, I ran out of thread on the tie rod so the toe-in is still just a bit excessive, but again, much, much better. Have been wondering what to do about the problem to get the toe-in "right on", and I just assumed that as beautifully as the car was built, I guess I just assumed the maybe Bob used the wrong tie rod or something. Now I'm wondering about the spindles,.....??? At least now I know what else to check,.....thanx,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 03:08 pm:

Roger & Steve Jelf - Should have said "thanks" to you guys too! Your information is going to require me to make a much more careful "study" of the problem on the '23 Roadster Pickup I just mentioned,.....thanks,.......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 03:11 pm:

It appears that your spindle arm may be the earlier straight version. It needs to look like the one diagram above. Also, a ball bearing race is unusual in a 1925.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 03:27 pm:

The Ford Service, at Para. 686, gives the 'stamp number' for the spindle arms, left and right, as T-281 Left...and T-280 Right.

But haven't seen those numbers in the castings, all the Left spindle arms are cast with T-270 or 270B. And the Right spindle arms cast with T-282 or 282B to identify them.






Left spindle arms, typically the cast i.d. numbers and Ford script and forging maker marks are on the underside, but they can vary:






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 03:30 pm:

Many years ago a club member brought for "Show and Tell" a spindle with the appearance of the one shown above in the bottom photo. He told of how all summer he had needed to continually realign the front end on his T.
In exasperation, he started looking over Everything in the front end in the best Sherlock Holmes style and found that one of the spindles had developed a CRACK on one side of the "socket" the receives the spindle arm! None of us had ever seen anything like it before.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 03:54 pm:

If you discover that one of the spindles is like the ones above Harold, drop me a note - I have dozens of them !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 06:24 pm:

Looking down (or up) any model T Ford spindle from mid 1911 through '27 should appear STRAIGHT across between the spindle itself and the part that the spindle arm bolts into. Clearly, somewhere, somehow, a bunch of these were made wrong! Most of them seem to show up from new old stock. A few have been found on axles or under cars.
I have never noticed one in person, but have seen photos of a few on this forum, and talked to a few people that have had one. Clearly, they are out there. They CANNOT and WILL NOT work properly. Even IF you could adjust the toe-in to be correct facing straight ahead? The wheels would not track properly turning in either direction. That angle needs to be very close to precise.
I would be curious to look a few of these defective spindles over up close. Was it the forging that was flawed? Or the machining? Were they Ford made? Or outsourced?
Regardless, tag it, and hang it on a wall as a curiosity. And get a proper one for your car.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bryan C on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 07:17 pm:

Thanks everyone,
it's funny that this started off as asking about something completely different. I'm glad I posted the pictures though.
The spindle is stamped Ford. I can say for sure that it was made that way, it's not bent or broken.
My original question still stands though (once I get a good spindle of course). When I put the spindle arm back in do I just make the hole in the spindle arm go straight up and down or is there some twist to it in either direction? You'd think those spindle arms would be notched into the spindle itself.
If the spindle arm hold is directly lined up with the spindle then why is there a right and a left? Wouldn't they be exactly the same?
Anyone have a drivers side for a '25 for less than $27? (Lang's price)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 08:06 pm:

Bryan, when fitting the spindle arms in the spindles, I leave them loose. That way, it is easy to align the tie rod end bolts in the holes. Once those are in place, the spindle arms can be tightened, held in the appropriate place by the tie rod end bolts.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 10:26 pm:

Bryan

Even if that spindle body has Ford on it, you shouldn't use that 'different animal' as Wayne posted.

The bore for the spindle arm should be parallel with the spindle body. That spindle body you have has an 'angled' bore for the arm. Fitting that spindle will give you big issues.

Here is older post on that different spindle, believed to be 1911 to 1913, maybe Ford suppliers did that, but the correct spindle body should have a parallel bore for the arm.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/437574.html?1397467782

These are correct style spindle bodies:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Plank - Three Way, TN on Tuesday, November 17, 2015 - 10:31 pm:

The spindle arms can get bent. With the spindles on the axle and both front wheels set with the proper toe, you should be able to tie a string around the pivot point of the spindle kingpin and run it back to the center of the differential case. The hole for the tie rod should center on that string line. This is based on the Ackermann principal. If set up this way, it causes the inside wheel to turn at a sharper radius, which is the correct geometry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 - 01:57 am:

Dan - You said,...."the bore for the spindle arm should be parallel with the spindle body."

I guess I'm confused. I would think that the bore for the spindle arm should be at right angle, or 90 degrees to the spindle body.

???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bryan C on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 - 08:03 am:

Great advice on keeping it loose. I'm going to get a different one anyway but this one was very tight. Perhaps just because it was the wrong body for that arm. I do believe I have the correct spindle arm. I'll have to look at the numbers on it again but I think I checked that before.
Harold, I get what Dan is saying. Yes, I assume he meant the hole itself should be 90 degrees off but the body of the hole (for lack of a better term) is directly lined up.
I also found the answer to my own question about there being a right and a left if they are built exactly the same way. They have opposite threads. They are set up so they loosen as you go down the road instead of tightening.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 - 08:48 am:

While building your front axle, be sure to check the spring perches too. Those are also left and right. Getting them wrong will upset the front wheel caster and make it difficult to assemble.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 - 09:48 am:

Here's the picture of my odd spindle (on the left) from the earlier thread Roger posted.


When I got my roadster it came with a tie rod that had some extra length welded in. When I investigated I found this odd spindle. The malformation is in the spindle, not in the arm. The other (normal) spindle has the hole for the arm at 90 to the spindle, while the odd one is at about 80. The strange spindle was obviously made this way. There's no evidence that it has been bent or twisted. Apparently, as Wayne says, enough of them were made for them to show up occasionally. This is a wild guess on my part, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that all of them are for the left side. Why were they made? Most likely by mistake. If this was intended as a legitimate part it would be in the parts book, and it isn't there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 - 05:17 pm:

If they were a legitimate part made by FORD they would be in the parts book. Read the Service Bulletins, fake parts were a problem then just like today. Watch for fake connecting rods. Dan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 - 07:28 pm:

I checked mine again today - it appears to be Genuine Ford and the driver's side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 - 08:18 pm:

For the major research experts. Are these a steel forging? Or a steel casting? Both processes were used by Ford, and its outsourced suppliers.
Looking at the photos of the defectives by both Bryan C and Steve J, both look to be errors at the casting or forging pattern level. What should be the center-line for the arm embossment is not on center with the spindle. That could likely only happen during the casting or forging process. However the piece was lined up for machining the flats, boring the hole, and cutting the chamfer in the hole, was then indexed incorrectly.
Pure speculation on my part.

I also wonder if most of the people that have these, could look them over carefully for maker's marks to see who they were made by? It may be possible to determine if they were all made at one place and time? Or did this happen several times randomly?
All just a curiosity really. As long as the defectives are taken away from cars, tagged for safety, and hung on the wall as a curiosity, that is what it is.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, November 18, 2015 - 08:54 pm:

Wayne

Here is a close up photo of one of these off-set bore spindle bodies, picture from post by Charles W. Sept 2012. (Link provided in my earlier post above) He said it came off his 1913, but the other side was not off-set like this spindle body.



So with the close up, there are numbers forged in the body, but not Ford numbers. And the maker's mark doesn't easily resemble Transue/Williams mark or other Ford supplier. Think this is one of those 'spurious' parts :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Thursday, November 19, 2015 - 04:33 pm:

Something I saw. The other 2 spindles with this "bent hole" have the flat places for removing bearing. The blue does not, must be early type. Why were they made "bad" on both styles? Are we all missing something here? Some kind of special spindle like the RAJO Offset spindles? Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Buckley on Thursday, November 19, 2015 - 06:08 pm:

Could they maybe be a "bad copy/counterfeit"? Unknown marker's mark, that doesn't match Ford or suppliers numbers or trademark? That practice is not just limited to modern times? Just a thought.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Thursday, November 19, 2015 - 07:12 pm:

Mine has what appears to be a genuine "Ford" in script between where the inner bearing rides and the threaded portion for the outer bearing - I'll grab it over the weekend and take a photo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bryan C on Tuesday, November 24, 2015 - 06:14 pm:

Mine is the same as Steve's


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