I got a nice flat piece of two inch plate today. I need a measured drawing to layout for the water jet. I was going to do this before with an inch and a quarter piece but it was not flat enough. I would like to make this as close to a original jig as possible in order to remove as weight as possible. That chunk of steel weighs 460 LBS right now.
Bob, I hope you get the measurements from someone. I also have a piece of 2 inch plate Im going to use and make me one. If I do not get the measurements I was going to trace around a good pan and then make the plate 1/4 inch larger all around. Except the area that the pan arms need to clear. I was going to just make that area clear the arms. Are you going to have your plate surfaced. I hope to find someone to surface mine after cutting. If you get any measurements please let me know. Ill let you know if I find them.. Thanks
2" PLATE STEEL WILL BE MORE THAN FLAT ENOUGH FOR A FORD. LOL CHARLEY
There seem to be members with KRW pan jigs in every state. Bob, unless someone in north Texas (Dallas/Ft.Worth area), Fed Houston or Mike Bender in Oklahoma might be able to help.
I think they are 43' long. Bob and Donnie if you send me your address's I will trace mine for you on to a piece of card board or something.
They are not quite 43 feet more like 43 inches.
I was wondering how many folds you were going to put into that cardboard before shipping it, John.
I was scrolling down reading the thread and saw the 43 feet and was just getting ready to razz you about it when I scrolled down and saw the inches. No fun. Back to the shop!
John, I think that pan must be for a "Twin Engine" Speedster!
So I believe what you're asking for is a drawing of the original frame mounting locations so you can make a jig to straighten engine pans with? If so, I might be able to help. I have a portable CMM that I can easily probe a frame or pan with, (of which I have both), but I'm not sure of the exact straightness. I'd hate to give you a drawing a bent part. I'll be glad to help if I can. Thanks. -Allen
Dang, your engine is longer than a 6 cylinder Model K or a V16 Cadillac. It would take a semi to just haul the pan.
Here, i was hoping someone would beat me to it - had to dig and look this up for you in my library. Grr I hate trying to get photos posted on this site - you owe me BIG lol.
OMG THIS PHOTO SIZE CRAP!!!!!!! 98th try. Get off the dialup internet already people!!! So annoying...
OMG PHOTO IS ALL BLURRY, email me directly if you what a great photo of this from my iPad...
Travis E. Towle
Allen, are you thinking of a Ferro Arm? He'd only need to locat pins for 5 or 6 hole and rhe location of the arm mounting holes. Then you could swing it around and do the 4th main. I think you'd want to start with a square pan and be able to identify to some form of primary, secondary and tertiary datums. It would definitely give the dimensions, then you could reference back using cad. Kinda reverse hillbilly engineering. Please understand it's been since 1992 that I was close to any form of coordinated measure machine much less a Ferro Arm but I think in this day and age a person would have a fairly easy time of using modern reverse engineering to mimic all kinds of Model T parts.
Just thunkin out loud.
Crap, now I gots a hedake!
Here's another look at what I have. It is 18 5/8 wide at the top of the photo, it comes down 19 inches the steps in on the left side. The edges on the top and the right side are very nice and square, factory looks like. The length is 45 inches. The bottom cut was made with the big propane torch and I knew it would be rough like it is. What I hoping to do is, get it cut in the shape of a pan like the KR Wilison. I have seen only one pan jig and that was years ago. I'm hoping someone will have a measured drawing on a original jig. Thanks to all you guys for your time and help.
For those of us far from a jig, is there any other way to check the straightness of the pan? Mine is off the engine now so this would be a good time to take a look.
I know it would add expense but seeing this is just a pice of hot roll after any burning/cutting or welding i would have it surface ground.First i would use a pice of channel for a guide and with about 90psi of oxeygen remove the butcher cut!!! Bud in Wheeler,Mi.
Eric ; If you come to Holland I can do it for you
Toon, I may have to take you up on your offer!
Bob sent you a PM
Bob sent you a PM
@ Michael G, Yeah it's a FARO arm, and I've already used it to my advantage when working on T's. See images below. It's a nice tool to have.
Just a couple of the 50 or so things I've used the FARO arm for on the T, but I've yet to have a pan in front of it yet.
Allen, it's great to finally see someone use those tools for something good other than inspecting giant globe valve bodies or gun turrets.
Allen it's been so many years since I've done anything with a faro arm I've lost pretty much everything I once knew. Were you able to do the drawings right from the software that came with the arm? I worked more with fixed surface plate CMM's. Do you have the arm mounted onto a granite surface plate? I did a lot of programming for production machining. I'm getting old and don't recall the capabilities of the machines but in my mind imagine you using a scan mode to do the layout on your parts. At any rate I'm impressed with what you've done.
So I have mine setup for R&D and reverse engineering mostly. The machine itself is capable of 0.0007" repeatability, but rather than using a spherical zircon ball to probe with (I'd have to deal with the offsets) I use a pointed tungsten tip to probe points with. The error is larger (usually 0.001-0.0015") but perfectly within reason for what I use it for. I have it on a steel table on wheels that way we're mobile and I can take it out in the shop if need be to probe underneath a car using a laptop, but most of the time I just have small parts on the bench. The FARO software integrates directly into my CAD programs so I probe points and develop my models simultaneously.
Attn: Bob Shirley,
Here is the blueprint for the oil pan. The KRW W31 has different dimensions plus is cast hollow. Your weight reduction could be accomplished by a cobweb construction since only the perimeter is used.
I'm also interested in this project, but was unable to make out the dimensions on this drawing. I've been thinking about this for a while, wondering how I could do it. Thanks, Dave in Bellingham, WA
A feeble attempt at resizing Jay's pic:
Anyone on this forum is welcome to bring their pan to me and get it straightened on my KRW pan jig while you watch and/or help. First hour is free. Beyond that is negotiable. We are in northern Ca., Sacramento area. I have never seen a pan that did not need at least some correction. Early pans usually need major help, four dip pans are always bent down at the rear if they are used with pre-26 engines. I bought my jig on eBay years ago and then spent a bunch on it to get it ready, because I can't guarantee my main bearings unless I know your pan is straight. I include pan work with every T main bearing job. Some pans require many hours of work, most less than one. Don't build a T engine without checking your pan unless you want to do it again.
It is difficult to make out dimensions on the drawing, but one key point can be seen and it is critical. Note that the center line for the length of the pan, and the center line for the width (which goes through the pan arm bolt hole[where the engine is bolted to the frame]) cross in the center of the oil drain hole. Thus all alignment holes are equal distance from one of these lines.
If you strain your eyes you can see the scribbed center lines on my self made pan jig. All attachment are based off these lines.
Jay, nice drawing. would it be possible to take four separate close up photos of the blueprint drawing. By being close ups of the drawing we may be able to make out the dimensions better. Thanks
Donnie I may have pdf. of that drawing on Monday. Nick Nickolas called me today and thinks he has it on his computer.
Thanks to everyone for your time and help. Mike sent a PFD file and I think I have everything I need. I'm off to the water jet guy in the next day or so and we'll see if he is within my budget. Thanks again, Bob
Is there a chance that the PDF file could be shared on here please? I'm sure there a lot of people that would like to do the same thing, I know I would.
Yup ... me too!
I have seen the PDF file. It is too large to post here. It is fairly grainy even as the large file. I do not think it will be possible to post it here, because you can not read it when resized to fit here. It is hard to make out some of the measurements even as-is. I want to thank Mike for taking the time to send me a copy. I believe someone needs to figure out where the original is . and see if it is possible to have professional copies made. It may be at the Benson. and it may involve an agreement with Ford to have them printed ... but I do believe the information on that print is needed by a lot of people ... Thanks again Mike ...
In answer to Eric Sole's first question.
Things are not always the way we would wish they were. I was in this hobby for almost thirty years before I even saw a real model T pan straightening jig. Sometimes, that is the way things are. But I had heard of them, and understood the necessity of the pan being straight.
If (that is a very big IF) you are careful, and use a very good, straight, straight-edge (whether a genuine one or just a really very straight piece of steel about three to four feet long) and measure very carefully, you can check a pan and straighten one. DO NOT assume that any plain piece of iron, not bar, not angle iron, nor channel steel, nor box tubing etc etc etc is straight enough. They usually ARE NOT!!!! Steel rod, or pipe, also cannot be used. It will flex slightly (or a lot). Your straight-edge will likely bend slightly in one direction (plane), but MUST BE INFLEXIBLE in the other direction (plane).
Once you have a verified straight enough edge, you must check the pan from front to back, both side to side and up and down (both are critical, up and down probably more so). Carefully measure from the straight hole centers down from both sides where the block bolts on. You can verify the block spacing by checking against a block which being cast iron does not change or bend over time. Corresponding holes around the hogshead must be equidistant from the straight-edge (3rd hole right is the same as 3rd hole left). Again, front to back and side to side are both important.
A lot of pan straightening can be accomplished by using a heavy piece of iron about three or four feet long, a couple of medium to large size C-clamps, and small blocks (either wood or metal can work). Remember, bending back to straight requires bending somewhat beyond straight until it springs back to straight.
It is a bit tricky, but really fairly simple. A little experimentation, a little practice, and it can be done. Without the proper jig.
Of course, if you can find the use of a proper jig? That is much easier. And probably better.
Like many things done the hard way. Measure. Trim. Re-measure. Re-trim. Ad infinitum till right.
It is amazing what can be accomplished with simple hand tools.
I just wish I could figure out how to draw onto the computer and post it. The felt pen goes on the screen okay, but it never posts or changes tabs???? (A few simple pictures would help explain things.)
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Along those lines of using a straight edge. Take a '26/'27 Block and hogs head bolted /clamped together straight and centered and you will have good place to see if the pan is straight or twisted.
If somebody is willing to work with me, I was planning on drawing the pan up using a current pan that I have. I would then post a drawing where the numbers of a non-verified straight pan. If someone with the PDF can compare mine to those, I will correct the drawing and host it in a format that is visible on the forum. -Allen
Wayne and Nicholas, thanks for your input. When my block comes back from the machine shop I will take a look at how the pan lines up to it.
Toon, I suggested to my wife that we could visit friends in France on the way to your place. She suggested we could visit them and come back home. Hmmm, I'm looking for a new angle now. ;)
Mystery solved. A lesson to be learned here for sure. Include your contact information with the shipment.
The shipper Fastenal drop his contact information from the paper work I received at time of pick up. I had requested that the owner included his contact info along with the engine but, that didn't happen.
After spending an hour with a very helpful Fastenal sales person, she found the phone number of the Fastenal store that shipped. I got the area code and when through my phone records and whoopee, called and asked if he sent me a motor “yes he did”.
Great news, Mike, did you mean to post it in the "did you ship me an engine" thread?
LOL yes I did!!!!
Oh well close enough, it is on the forum, so it is in the wheel house.
The water jet people get $5 per inch to cut a basic straight line. A programing fee as well as a setup fee for anything other than a line. Got a friend with a track torch, just going to clean up what's there.
The act of cutting out what you want will most likely cause it to warp. Check around for a shop that will Blanchard grind that plate top & bottom when you're done with it. Shouldn't be too pricey and it will make a nice flat jig when you're done.
$5 per inch!!? Is that their cost across the board or just on 2" steel?
The $5 per inch is for 2 inch plate cut in a straight line, the thickness slows the cut is what they said. I'm going to use what I have and let the next guy make it pretty if that what he wants. Got started on the base this afternoon.
Had my 4 dip on the CMM today and developed a vector file. I'll refine this and check the numbers against the PDF and share the data with anyone who might need it for their projects.