'26 touring car hard start when cold episode #2

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: '26 touring car hard start when cold episode #2
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Saturday, November 21, 2015 - 07:57 pm:

hello all, I started a new thread because the old one about hard starting when cold was getting a little longish! I now have a new problem since cleaning the carb, removing and replacing the brass fitting for the spark lever/timing rod connection was a real pup trying to get that cotter pin back in)and resetting the timing. I set the timing by, setting the number one piston on compression stroke slightly after the piston started downward, disconnecting the rod from the timer cover, turning the key on batt, then moving the timer until she just started buzzing and then bent the rod to fit into the timer cover perfectly. I then decided to finally try and start her up by giving her 2 primer pulls with the ignition off (for some reason it was harder than usual to pull the crank, almost like there was "too much" compression, I then turned the key to batt and tried to give her one good quarter pull. Luckily I was paying attention because of all the work I did on the carb and timing so I was more than little cautious while cranking when she kicked back so hard I thought the crank was going to fly off!!!!!!! thank God my hand was out of the way when she did or I think it would have taken my arm off!!!!!!! This car has NEVER kicked back since I've owned it, and now I realize why you guys are so bent on being careful when hand cranking a T!!!!!!!!! Anyway, now that I am scared half to death to try and crank her again can anyone tell me what I did wrong with the timing? thank's
Den


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, November 21, 2015 - 08:54 pm:

As you stand in front of the car facing the timer, with the lever all the way up, you move the timer counter clockwise until the coil STOPS buzzing. Bend the rod to fit. I think you actually set the spark too advanced. Remember the rod advances the spark, so you want it to start buzzing after it passes TDC.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Saturday, November 21, 2015 - 08:57 pm:

Until someone offers an opinion, when you have time, consider checking what you have done with this procedure:


http://www.spokanemodeltclub.com/resources/How%20to%20Time%20a%20Model%20T.pdf


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Saturday, November 21, 2015 - 09:14 pm:

Dennis,

Also, check the wiring on the timer...maybe a "short" - frayed wire making an unwanted contact with something?

Norm wrote this awhile back:

"By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, April 28, 2015 - 11:23 am:
If you do anything with the timer, it depends on what timer you have. The original ones or reproductions of original have a roller which makes contacts with metal segments around the rim of the timer. This area needs to be cleaned and greased.

There is a New Day timer or other similar which has a brush contact, not a roller. That type needs to be clean but doesn't need to be greased.

There is also an Anderson or Anco timer which has a flapper which makes contact with segments on the outside edge of the cover. That timer needs to be clean and a small amount of grease applied to the flapper. There is a special grease available from the manufacturer which is best to use. Vasoline will also work.

When you install the timer cover be sure to rotate it and look at it in all positions that the wires are tucked behind the tension spring and that none of them are grounded to any part of the engine and also that they are not in contact with the fan belt.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Saturday, November 21, 2015 - 10:23 pm:

thank's, I'll check the link, but I think Norman hit the nail on the head! I turned the timer "clockwise" until she buzzed and then bent the rod to fit! I'll turn it counter clockwise tomorrow and give it a shot!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Sunday, November 22, 2015 - 05:51 pm:

I printed out the steps in the link and tried to reset the timing but I think that there is too much play in the spark advance rod to set it properly! The spark lever moves a minimum of 9 clicks before the rod begins to move the timer so I am thinking that I have to fix that problem before I can go any further with it. When I took the old brass fitting off, it was held on by a cotter pin going through the long spark lever shaft so I just put the new one on in the same manner,but someone mentioned in my previous thread about using a "rivet" to attach it so that there is no slop in it. Any suggestions on the best way that I can get rid of the slop in it? thank's


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Sunday, November 22, 2015 - 06:49 pm:

dennis, go back to a previous thread:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/583662.html?1448154869

and towards the bottom of that thread is Steve Jelf's solution. Otherwise call the various vendors and see if you can purchase a different part....but unless it is NOS, it too, will likely be "wallowed out".

The good news is that you found your problem...9 clicks on top and no movement on bottom is WAAYY too much.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, November 22, 2015 - 09:09 pm:

I used a piece of 3/32" stainless steel welding rod for those rivets. Cut it so a bit sticks out on each side and use a large hammer for a buck and a smaller one to do the hammering. Worked great for me. JMHO Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Monday, November 23, 2015 - 01:02 pm:

thank's, I'll try the 3/32 rod and see if I can get it in, It was pretty difficult to get even the cotter pin in though so I might have to try and remove the spark rod from the column to do it right, maybe I'll get the chance to mess with it later tonight!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Monday, November 23, 2015 - 01:05 pm:

Dave, do you mean that the new part I have may be defective? I'll pull it off and take a look at it, I think it is bronze, not brass!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Monday, November 23, 2015 - 02:56 pm:

dennis,

Steve's picture shows enough "daylight" between the rod and the hole to make for slop...a few extra clicks on the lever on the steering column before the commutator moves. Not good.


Does your "new" part look worn like that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Monday, November 23, 2015 - 07:41 pm:

I will remove it and take a better look at it, I do know that it slid onto the shaft very easy though!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Thursday, November 26, 2015 - 01:26 pm:

I ordered a new fitting,new timer rod and the proper pins to see if that will take up some of the slack!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Thursday, November 26, 2015 - 02:43 pm:

Dennis, you may need to braze your lever to the spark rod. Very often they're loose and can cause excessive play in the spark lever.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Sunday, November 29, 2015 - 02:42 pm:

still waiting for it! I remember not too long ago being amazed at how fast things got shipped,
(2 days!!!) but the last few orders seemed to take forever!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 05:04 pm:

still waiting! website said it shipped on the 24th, could have put it in an envelope and mailed it faster than this!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Wednesday, December 02, 2015 - 12:00 pm:

I don't know how to braze, do you think JB weld or solder would be strong enough?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, December 02, 2015 - 12:14 pm:

I think solder would hold it, and would be easy to undo if needed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Wednesday, December 02, 2015 - 11:50 pm:

thank's the parts came today and I will give it a try on the weekend!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Saturday, December 12, 2015 - 02:52 pm:

update: So far I have removed the carb,cleaned,replaced float seat and valve,reset float, cleaned timer, replaced the timer rod and reset timing, cleaned and regapped the champion x's. Tried to start the car by handcranking (because the starter is useless at this point due to the bad ring gear), Tried to start using all different combinations of priming pulls/starting pulls and could only get her to start for a second only to die before I can advance the spark! I am back to square one only deeper because now she won't stay running even after the carb is flooded (when I started messing with all of this she would start only after the carb was flooded after about 6 primer pulls!) I am officially at my wit's end but only now have a sore shoulder from cranking to boot!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, December 12, 2015 - 03:56 pm:

You need to find someone in your area who can help you.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, December 12, 2015 - 04:33 pm:

Since it sounds like it starts and runs for at least a second or two, my bet is it's still a fuel flow or carb problem. Do you or a nearby fellow hobbyist have another known good carb that you can swap on?

If you're sure that it isn't the carburetor, try rigging up an alternate fuel feed setup using some rubber tubing and a clean coffee can or other gasoline-proof container. If the car runs with the alternate fuel feed, then troubleshooting can concentrate on the fuel tank, sediment bulb, or fuel line.

Before you make another attempt, pull the spark plugs and clean them up to get rid of any carbon or wet fuel that may be fouling them.

Keep us posted and good luck! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Saturday, December 12, 2015 - 04:51 pm:

that is one of the strange things about all of this, even though I KNOW that I've flooded the carb (dripping gas), I have never seen the plugs wet! whenever I have pulled them, they were only carboned up and bone dry!!! I don't understand it!
When she kicks over now, it is only for a very brief spurt and then I have to try priming her all over again to get her to kick, otherwise I could just keep hand cranking with no start. once in a while after priming, I turn the key and get a slight kick like a free start! I'll pull the plugs again and see what they look like!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, December 12, 2015 - 05:01 pm:

It's very odd that the carb is dripping wet, yet the engine acts like it isn't getting fuel. Are you sure some critter hasn't built a nest inside the intake manifold, blocking the mixture?

I know you've had the carb apart, but are you sure that all of the internal passages are clear? You may have mentioned but I missed it, what carb are you running? If we know which carb, perhaps Stan Howe can give you some tips on where the internal passages are and how to make sure they are clear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, December 13, 2015 - 11:26 am:

If the fuel flows freely out of the drain at the bottom of the bowl, I would suspect there is a blockage in the pathway of fuel between the bowl and the manifold. If you are using a vaporizer with the fuel bowl at the bottom and a plate over the exhaust manifold with the air intake at the top, I would suspect a vacuum leak or a blockage in that riser plate. Most of us who have a 26 or 27 have removed the vaporizer and replaced with either a NH or L4 either of which are relatively trouble free. Let us know which type carburetor you have or send a picture of it.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Sunday, December 13, 2015 - 12:33 pm:

HI have an "NH" Holley carb. when I took it apart, I made sure that all of the passages were clean ( they were pretty clean before I began), I drilled out the 3 plugs, rand wire and carb cleaner through them,then replugged them according to other posts on the forum, I then replaced the float valve with a new "ball" type valve and reset the float to 1/4 inch from the gqasket flange directly opposite from the valve. When I finally got the car started after all of this, she ran like crap, almost like a cylinder wasn't firing, but then I realized that I had the mixture screw open way too much, and when I turned her back in, she smoothed out and idled ok., but the hard starting still continues. I tried using the starter, but it keeps getting stuck in the ring gear and I have to rock the car back and forth to free it up everytime, which is why I was hoping to get it to start better with the crank. The shame of it all is that, our weather hear in buffalo has been abnormally warm with no snow yet, so I was hoping to be able to drive her around a bit before putting her up for the winter and tackling that ring gear!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Sunday, December 13, 2015 - 03:28 pm:

update: I went out and gave it the ol' college try! I gave her 6 primer 1/4 pulls, waited a second then turned the key to batt, she jumped like she was going to free start but did not. I gave her a crank and she sputtered for a second then died. I turned the key off, gave 6 more primer cranks, waited a second then turned the key to batt, she jumped again, I gave her a couple of 1/4 pulls and she started but died before I could advance the spark. gave her a couple more cranks, nothing. I gave her 6 more primer cranks,(gas dripped from the carb) turned the key on and she jumped a little like a free start again. I left the key on and gave her a crank, she started and I advanced the spark lever, she stayed running but rough, I cut the idle down and smoothed her out by turning the mixture screw in a quarter turn. She stayed running, but a bit rough, I revved her up a few times and let her idle for about 5 minutes before shutting her off. Just for the heck of it, I turned the key back on and gave her one crank, she started up immediately almost before I got done with the one pull!!!!! I am at a loss as to why she won't start without all of the priming pulls? (although she does run rough when running)
I think I will drain the tank next and put fresh gas in to see if that makes any difference, but I don't think it will at this point.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, December 13, 2015 - 03:38 pm:

Sounds like you're gaining on it. Draining the tank is a good idea, if you get any sediment out of the tank there's a good chance that there is a lot more in there than you can see, see this earlier post (the thread is long, follow it to the end):

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/561388.html?1441202872

To further help ensure the carb is clear, here is a trick we used to do on old muscle cars:

When the engine is running at a fast idle, quickly put your hand over the carb air intake, then remove it quickly before the engine dies. Do this a few times while the engine is running at a fast idle.

What this does is momentarily pull a super-size vacuum through the carb to further clear the internal passages.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, December 13, 2015 - 03:48 pm:

It sounds like it is getting better. I don't live in Buffalo, so I am not familiar with the weather, but have heard that it gets much colder than here. It rarely gets below freezing here. So I don't have experience with starting in very cold weather. If your gasoline is very old that might be one cause of the problem. Another way to prime the engine is to pull the spark plugs and put a few drops of gasoline in each cylinder then put the plugs back in and try to start. Or to use starting fluid which comes in a spray can. Either of these methods will only get it started then your carburetor will need to give you the gas you need to keep running. I think you have about the right mixture if it will idle for 5 minutes. Next time you try to start just open the valve about 1/4 turn. I have also found that the gros valve that is the ball bearing float valve doesn't work very well in a Model T. But if it runs for 5 minutes, that would indicate you are getting enough fuel. Next time you get it to idle 5 minutes, try to run it a short distance and see how it runs under power. You might also need to do some more fine adjustment to the needle valve after the engine gets to normal operating temperature, which might be warmer than it gets idling for 5 minutes.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, December 13, 2015 - 03:49 pm:

I don't know if it's the cause for your hard starting and poor running, but those ball valves have a troublesome reputation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Sunday, December 13, 2015 - 04:00 pm:

will check the sediment bulb, but it is fairly new (2 years) and I know I had decent gas flow when I checked it before removing the carb to clean it. When I first got the car years ago, I had to clean and reline the tank with epoxy and have not had a rust problem since. I wonder if the float setting could have anything to do with the way she is running, I replaced the valve with a ball type and noticed that I had to bend the float tang quite a bit to get the float 1/4 inch from the flange gasket surface?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Sunday, December 13, 2015 - 04:08 pm:

Next time you want to try a start, give it only two (2) 1/4 turn primer pulls with key off, of course. Give 3-4 notches of gas, and turn key to Bat and see if it starts.
(Just for grins & giggles).

They flood easily, and 6 primer pulls seems a lot to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Sunday, December 13, 2015 - 04:39 pm:

have tried all different combinations from zero prime pulls to 6 and the only way she seemed to do anything was the 6 when cold, when the engine is warm or hot, she will start with one crank and no primer pull most of the time for about an hour after I shut it off. I just went out for the heck of it and tried to start with no primer pulls, she started on the 5th crank and ran rough. before this last attempt, I had shut her off about an hour ago so she was still a bit warm. while she was running this last time, I sprayed some carb cleaner around the outside of the carb and could not fins any vacuume leaks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, December 13, 2015 - 07:14 pm:

Hey Dennis..... all the hints on carb adjustments & staring/cranking , any checks on spark plug gap/cleaning ???? I'm good with clean plugs with .025" gap.... starts every time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Sunday, December 13, 2015 - 09:53 pm:

yes, I have removed the champion x's which do not have many mile on them since buying new, cleaned them (they were carboned up but otherwise ok, regapped them to .25, I pulled them out again today just to check and they were just carboned up. I just drained the tank a little while ago and put fresh gas in. I'll have another go at it tomorrow and see what happens. Thank's all for the suggestions, better than me sitting here pulling what's left of my hair out!!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Monday, December 14, 2015 - 10:31 am:

Try opening up the spark plug gap to 1/32" (.03125") as Henry suggested.
Our '27 would carbon foul the plugs when gapped to .025", but ran sweet at .032".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Wednesday, December 16, 2015 - 12:20 am:

I wasn't able to get to it today but I'll change the gap tomorrow and give it a try.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, December 16, 2015 - 03:33 am:

Dennis, I haven't read all of this thread, but something caught my attention. You said that after it started, it ran rough. Are you sure the timer, coils and wiring is up to snuff? Just a thought. Dave


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