Model t a flex fuel car?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Model t a flex fuel car?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg pacana on Monday, November 30, 2015 - 07:12 pm:

I've read books and heard tales of Henry ford making his cars at first to run on corn ethanol. Also that they can run kerosene and also gasoline.
Not that I'm trying any of these but gas just trying to get the combustion sense.
Kero? Really?
Greg.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Monday, November 30, 2015 - 07:17 pm:

Yes they did run on kerosene. Haven't tried it, but I've read where they didn't run all that great. But I guess in a pinch, it beat walking! And it amazes me whenever I'm at a gas station filling my T during it's "one car-car show" how surprised people are that it runs fine on unleaded! So I give them a history lesson on leaded fuel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Monday, November 30, 2015 - 07:53 pm:

My 27 coupe ran from the plant to the gas station on isopropyl alcohol. I have run it on old smelly style kerosene. I found it wouldn't run on Varsol.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Monday, November 30, 2015 - 07:53 pm:

The Model T is known as the Universal Car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Monday, November 30, 2015 - 08:09 pm:

Has anyone here tried kero? Would the car start on it or would it have to be added while running? Would it foul the plugs, valves or piston heads? I'm just the kind of person who would try it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Monday, November 30, 2015 - 08:20 pm:

They used to start on gas and switch to kerosene. The difference in cost was 2 or 3 cents a gallon but back them a penny would buy you something.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By rick howerton on Monday, November 30, 2015 - 08:31 pm:

I was told the vaporizer carb. would even burn drip gas back in the day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Monday, November 30, 2015 - 08:59 pm:

here's what you need to run Kerosene

I have no interest in this T-bay auction but here is the link
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HOLLEY-BROS-Dual-GAS-KEROSENE-Carburetor-Manifold-FORD-MODEL-T-for-Restore-/271329480457?hash=item3f2c7f4f09:g:JuEAAMXQUmFSiBlu&vxp=mtr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg pacana on Monday, November 30, 2015 - 10:16 pm:

Thanks for all the responses. Love to hear trials and opinions on all t topics.

I had a 95 Ford F-250 deisel 7.4 motor.
I also owned a bar with lots of extra fryer oil!

We'll have a few too many beers and hang with mechanics and before you know it my truck ran on fryer oil.
Filtered oil directly from fryer into 55 gallon drum.
Added 1 gallon of gas to 50 gallons of fryer oil
Added 6 oz of non gelling agent

I no longer have the bar so my 22 touring is safe.
Greg.
It cost me 40 c for a gallon of fuel when it was 4.65 a gallon here in philly at the time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 12:48 am:

Even before the T Henry Ford worked on alternate fuels. With the impending passage of an "ethanol" bill, Ford experimented with, and claimed good results with grain alcohol:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 12:52 am:

Ran my T on diesel a few years ago. Don't do it. It's really bad. Only time i've heard a T detonate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 09:54 am:

LOL - Henry Ford's success using alcohol as a fuel. LOL!!!!!!!!!!

The Model T was designed for and used Gasoline as its only recommended fuel. Ford never marketed or sold any flex fuel vehicles prior to the post Y2K era. If there was a profit to be made using any other type of fuel, Ford would have done it. He did not do it because his experiments proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that gasoline was a superior fuel from any perspective be it cost or performance or availability.

You will find this (the Model T was designed as a flex fuel vehicle) lie repeated all over the internet due to ill - informed leftist environmental whackos, ripoff artists who want to sell rubbish gizmos, and others who are trying to prove their false agendas.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 10:01 am:

Another lie exposed. What would we do without our forum truth tellers?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 10:23 am:

At the risk of having a Canadian pull the plug i will ask are right wing wackos any better?? Bud,Warm burning corn!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 10:58 am:

Of note: The distillation of gasoline changes around 1920. Before this date gasoline was lighter (SPG) and of a "purer" quality. After the 1920's gasoline was heaver (SGP) with more kerosene in the gasoline mixture. Ford articles of the time gave suggestions on carburetor modifications to allow the factory carburetor of older cars operate on the new gasoline.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 11:04 am:

I burn corn too, if I use gas with ethanol in it. :-)

Yes, an internal combustion engine intended to run on gasoline can get by on some other fuels, but not very well. I was driving a Renault R-10 and ran out of gas, so I put in a gallon of Coleman camp stove fuel to get to the next filling station. When I got there the car wouldn't shut off and I had to put it in high gear and pop the clutch to kill the dieseling.

Many prewar tractors were made with two fuel tanks. The smaller tank held gasoline for starting and the larger was for running on cheaper kerosene after starting. You would switch back to the smaller tank before shutting off the engine so it would be ready for its next start. Using one of those tractors today, you would want gas in both tanks because kerosene is now colossally expensive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 11:15 am:

Adding to what Jeff stated, and if memory is still in place, there were diesels up to the 1960's that could be started on gasoline and with a flip of a lever be switched to fuel oil (diesel). Many a construction sites would have equipment moved at night to be found elsewhere when the thieves would not know that the machine only had a two gallon tank of gasoline for starting only.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie, Memphis TN on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 11:48 am:

My first Model T was a true "barn find." It was a '25 touring. It had a second fuel tank, obviously homemade, under the back seat. The fuel line from that tank was wrapped 3 times around the snout of the exhaust manifold, and brazed to it wherever it touched. It then went to a 3-way valve, so you could switch from the front tank (gasoline) to the rear tank (pre-heated kerosene).

This was, I was told, a common war-time thing (WWII). Gasoline was rationed, but kerosene was not, and was readily available.

The car would be started on gasoline, and as soon as the kerosene in the line wrapped around the manifold got hot, the valve would be switched. I'm told it ran just fine on warmed-up kerosene. I never experienced that myself, as the kero tank and line was completely gummed up with varnish, and I couldn't clean it. So I took it off.

A couple of things to remember. One, this car had the mixture adjustment on the choke knob, so making fine adjustments while you drove was easier than reaching down under the dash.

Two, the gasoline in the Model T's day was not very far from kerosene. The difference, I was told by old-timers, was the "oiliness" of the kerosene. I guess the gasoline was slightly further refined. But, it was a far cry from the gasoline of today.

And, the kerosene of today is junk. It's almost a curiosity today, but was a popular commodity back then.

So, the difference between the two today, is the width of the Grand Canyon. That's not to say that a T wouldn't run on warmed kerosene, but given its scarcity and higher cost, why would you want to try?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 11:58 am:

George,
We used to have an International TD 19, about the equivalent of a D-6 Cat that started on gas, then switched to diesel. I believe there was a compression release too, and when the switch was flipped to diesel the compression also increased to burn diesel (if memory serves).

Many automakers conducted studies between 1906-1909 to compare gasolene/gasoline, alcohol and benzol performance. One of the reasons for the "free alcohol act" and experimentation was the increasing cost of gas, along with concerns over dwindling supply and smell (pollution). One of the best results occurred when a small amount of acetylene was introduced with alcohol into the combustion chamber.

Or this could all be a lie, perpetrated by the that nasty oligopoly, the farming community, of which I am one.... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 12:15 pm:

Rob- you are spot on. I am familiar with the International series crawlers. Two levers in front of the operator one throttle and the other for the compression/pump exchange(?) I believe that one of the issues with alcohol - prior to Prohibition - was how to tax the stuff.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 12:35 pm:

About 10 years ago I met a guy in Western Mass that owned a garlic farm.
He was completely off the grid, using solar cells, and powered his van with French fry oil that he got from a few local McDonalds.

He treated me like I was a no-body until my daughter told him that I was an expert at making lead free solder work on electronic circuit boards.

He said that one of his concerns was that the State of Massachusetts would find out what he used for fuel in the van and would figure out a way to tax it.

As for fuel in Model T's
They will run on almost anything that goes boom. :-)
The real question is how long will they run?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 12:51 pm:

I have never seen a TD 19 but i had a T 9 and a TD 18.The T was Gas and the TD diesel but no 19.The 10-20 15-30 22-36 and some of the early H&M's had a tank for starting on gas and with the correct spark plugs and hot manifolds when running and warm you could shut off the gas and they would run on fuel oil or Distlate.The older 10 20 15 30 and 22 36 had 3 tanks and one was for water when running on kero.The MD WD9 supers and later 400-650 had two sets of manifolds two combustion chambers in the heads and a gas side to start on and switch to full Diesel when warmed up.The M through 650 also had a pump and injecters as the TD9 TD14 TD18 and TD24.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 01:33 pm:

Bud, I mis typed, it was a TD 15. We used it to fix terraces and waterways.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 07:10 pm:

Sorry,I sure did not mean to dirvet this thread to cat's!! With the ability to retard the spark i think it would be easy to run a T on Kerosene or even Jet Fuel. Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 07:29 pm:

The critical part of using a heavy fuel as kerosene is to preheat it to allow a better vapourization. Ways to accomplish this are intake manifolds with hot spots, heating the fuel, preheating the air. Anything that can allow the fuel to be vapourizes more efficiently. One reason for the dual carburetor is to preheat the engine using a lighter fuel as gasoline. Once the engine is warm introduce the kerosene. When the engine is shut down switch to the gasoline carburetor for the next restart.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 07:39 pm:

Here's a link to a combo Gas/Kerosene Carb/manifold unit I posted here back in 2009 under Accessory Of The Day

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/117684.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By rick howerton on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 08:27 pm:

I guess you guys never heard of drip gas. Hear in okla. drip gas comes from condensation water out of a natural gas well. People would go out at night and steal the drip gas from the tanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gilbert V. I. Fitzhugh on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 09:08 pm:

I have a Stanley steam car that's set up to burn kerosene. The fuel is pumped at 125 psi to a pair of external nozzles, through which it squirts into air and burns in a disc about 23 inches in diameter. Before the fuel gets to those nozzles it goes through a 6-1/2-foot-long tube with a length of steel cable inside it. That tube curls around directly over the burner, between the fire and the boiler, so the fuel will come through the nozzles as a vapor instead of a liquid. Before I can steam up a cold Stanley, after the pilot light (which burns hexane) has been lit and has warmed for a few minutes, I have to heat the external nozzles with a propane torch for about three minutes so the kerosene will burn when it's first turned on. Once the main fire is lit, it takes about 20 minutes to build 550 psi of steam pressure so I can go for a drive.

As Steve says, kerosene is very expensive these days. And, in northern NJ where I live, it's impossible to find in convenient quantities. So I drive to a local airport with some five-gallon jerry cans and fill them with jet fuel, which is basically kerosene that's better refined. I come home and siphon the stuff into my Stanley. So I have one of the very few 1911 cars that runs on jet fuel.

There's a reason they don't make these things any more!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 09:20 pm:

It's difficult to know what the concerns and interests of people a hundred years ago, based on our personal prejudices and opinions. Looking at headlines of the day, there seemed to be a concerted effort to find cleaner, readily available fuels, with the recognition that there was a finite supply of fossil fuels. Somethings never change:



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg pacana on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 10:27 pm:

Royce How are you today.

I didn't think a texan would agree with burning anything but oil.
lol
You must be one of those Texas oil tycoons like David Koch. lol

Im just teasing Royce i always like to hear your opinion on things.

If you are a billionaire, I could use a new trunk deck for my 26 Coupe.

Regards
Greg


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 10:31 pm:

I don't know about a T but a drunk showed up at my door about 1 AM a few years ago. Was driving a caddy. said he was lost and needed fuel. He saw the bulk fuel tanks at the barn. I told him those were diesel but he wouldn't shut up so I gave him a can of kerosene I had at the house for the basement heater. In case you wondered a caddy will run on kerosene, but the valves make an awful racket.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 10:37 pm:

Steve,
We have fuel barrels on our farm. Years ago, back in the seventies, I learned (years later) that one of my classmates and a few friends stopped by the farm out of gas. We weren't home, so they helped themselves to a few gallons of gas from one of the tanks to get back to town.

Only problem, they unwittingly took their "gas" from our farm diesel barrel. Evidently they had a hell of a time making it back to town, and the car smoked and was hard to start for quite a while. You can run on diesel with a gas engine (carburetor) for a while, but not very well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 10:49 pm:

Steve - I think I would have given the drunk a call for the sheriff to be arrested for DUI instead of a can of kerosene..?

On topic - yes, my T runs just as good on E85, though I ran out of fuel twice with that stuff in the tank - had to open up the carb adjustment somewhat and the mileage got much worse than usual. So now it gets regular gas. E85 makes bad starting in cold weather - that's another reason to keep gas in the tank over winter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 10:55 pm:

Greg,
I'll try to get back to your original post (sorry for the drift). I think the bottom line was probably just that, the bottom line. Alternate fuels, kerosene, ethanol, benzol gained interest, I believe, when the supply of gasoline was threatened, and cost prohibitive.

This 1906 article may help explain why Henry Ford, and other carmakers, were experimenting with alternative fuels. At 22 cents per gallon, gas would cost the equivalent of about $5.50 today (with no associated tax, that I'm aware of):


It may also help explain one of the reasons Ford, with light, reasonably powered cars, became popular.

(Message edited by Rob on December 01, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg pacana on Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - 11:31 pm:

Jeeze ole man Rob H !!!

So man has been b#*ching about the price of gas for longer than i thought!
obviously pretty much since the beginning of the automotive industry.
LOL LOL LOL

Thought it was just 70s generation and 2000s sort of thing.
Sort of funny to hear.
Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, December 02, 2015 - 12:29 am:

I'm glad Gilbert mentioned Stanleys, as I was going to confirm that Kerosene today is not your Grandfather's kerosene. Many Stanley owners (at least here on the west coast) burn a mixture of diesel & unleaded gasoline to get a mixture that will atomize and have enough BTUs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Wednesday, December 02, 2015 - 11:52 am:

No T experience with kerosene, but I did accidentally put it in my dad's lawnmower when I was a kid.

Nobody saw a mosquito in our neighborhood that summer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Wednesday, December 02, 2015 - 01:32 pm:

Henry Ford may have stated that history is bunk. But it was Clarence Darrow who stated history repeats itself, and that's one of the things that's wrong with history.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Wednesday, December 02, 2015 - 03:46 pm:

George,Only if we don't learn from it!! Bud.


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