Loose Bearing Race in Front Wheel

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Loose Bearing Race in Front Wheel
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By P. Jamison- PA on Saturday, December 05, 2015 - 06:39 pm:

The new outer taper bearing race I installed on the front wheel is a loose fit; maybe .005" or so. Anyway, I can turn it freely. The old race was broken, so I'm thinking this enlarged the opening. Any suggestions on how to get a better fit?

Phil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Saturday, December 05, 2015 - 06:51 pm:

With that close a fit, JB weld could be your answer. I would wipe both surfaces with acetone first, then JB weld. Allow to set for 24 hours.

Check after 50 miles or so.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Saturday, December 05, 2015 - 07:00 pm:

Shim it with feeler gauge. It works well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, December 05, 2015 - 07:09 pm:

Stud and bearing mount Loctite works very well too. Make sure you have the race where you want it, you'll have to heat it in order to remove it once the Loctite has set. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Saturday, December 05, 2015 - 11:04 pm:

A machine shop could knurl it for you then use the Locktite and your done. Bud in wheeler,Mi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles Weisgerber on Sunday, December 06, 2015 - 02:58 pm:

Phil, while you're at it check the outer hub area for cracks. I went through the same thing, cracked loose outer race, then upon closer inspection I noticed a small crack across the hubcap threads and going into the machined area that accepts the race itself. Not sure which came first, but it was there. Just a head's up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Sunday, December 06, 2015 - 03:12 pm:

An old machine shop trick is to do a "strawberry fit" That is where you take a small sharp center punch and put lots of center punch marks where the bearing race is supposed to be a press fit. When done it will have the appearance of a lot of "strawberry seeds" hence the name. Do not mark the area behind the bearing as you still want it to seat at the back of the bore, just punch the outer diameter of the bore for the race. I would try to get as many "strawberry seeds" as possible. Shoot for about aprox 1/8 inch spacing or closer of the punch marks. Hit them fairly hard to give a "good seed" then use a little JB weld if you want to. I have did that many times and you will be surprised how tight it will make it. I have even had to press the race back in after a "strawberry fit" and have never had to re do one. "Poor boys have poor ways" :-) but they do work ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Sunday, December 06, 2015 - 03:18 pm:

One thing I forgot. When pressing the race back in. Stop just before it seats in the back of the bore. Sometimes you will "shave off" the top of the "strawberry seeds" and you want to clean out any little specks of the metal. Then finish seating the race. This is basically the same fix as Kenneth suggested about "knurling" its just the "home brew" method. and checking for cracks was another good suggestion ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Sunday, December 06, 2015 - 05:41 pm:

I have used JB weld to fix this problem many times on T hubs. When you do it, have your spindle and bearings ready so you can set the loose race in the hub with the epoxy, then put the hub on the spindle and draw the whole works together with the spindle nut so the race is centered in the hub in proper alignment while the JB weld cures. Then you can take the whole works apart and trim off the epoxy that is left over and pack the wheel bearings for assembly. When I was young and broke, I did this same procedure to fix a loose wheel bearing in a 1972 Chevy truck, and it lasted for years, this in a hub that had disc brakes with the associated weight and heat load. A model T will never be stressed that way. It will be a lasting repair. For a race that is not too loose, Loctite sleeve and bearing retainer, the green formula, works well too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Sunday, December 06, 2015 - 06:18 pm:

Ditto on what Donnie said,it works well. The Loctite Bearing and sleeve retainer is what I use for situations like this.It is about 12 bucks for a tiny tube. but a little goes a long way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Sunday, December 06, 2015 - 07:11 pm:

Donnie named the fix I have used a lot. I also use a bearing or seal mount type of locktite and have never had any problems. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Sunday, December 06, 2015 - 08:55 pm:

Keith, My machinist "mentor" was from the old school. He was from a time when you "fixed things" not just changed parts. He taught me lots of tricks of the trade and he was a very articulate knowledgeable person. He knew all the right names of all the different procedures he used. He died a few years ago and I sure do miss him. I just hope to pass a little of his knowledge on to someone else, so his knowledge can carry on. I believe I like Model Ts so much because fixes like a "strawberry fit" just seem to go with working on Model Ts. I will actually fix a part with some of the "old ways" instead of changing the part (even if I have a good part to use) Just to have a feel of the old days ... have fun and be safe .... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, December 07, 2015 - 01:21 pm:

To those would always rather "fix" than "replace", sometimes the best "fix" is to "replace".

I would NOT use JB Weld. Seen too many messes created by using it for this. It crumbles under the load. If you don't want to find a better hub then use a Loc-Tite product.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, December 07, 2015 - 01:42 pm:

OK. I don't want contradict anyone or ruffle any feathers, but, in my experience, the center punch method does not GENERALLY work very well. Usually, the raised area will just flatten out again, OVER TIME. It may well work for a while, and maybe for a long time, but usually not indefinitely. I have seen that happen many, many times over fifty plus years of being around many different types of machinery and equipment. Now, that being said, if a Loctite product, especially the red Stud and Bearing mount, is used along with the center punch marks, the success rate is VERY much improved. This is just from my own experience and others that have mentored me, and, as always, YMMV. Hope I haven't stepped on any toes. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Monday, December 07, 2015 - 02:08 pm:

I'm with Bud on this one Knurling is the best answer and it maintains the alignment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, December 07, 2015 - 03:45 pm:

Seen a bunch of them all beat up with center punch marks that still have a loose race. Better to use shim stock IMHO.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Monday, December 07, 2015 - 10:31 pm:

I like the idea of knurling with Loctite sleeve retainer. I just wonder if the cup is too hard to knurl. I've used JB Weld in a lot of areas but I'd be afraid of using it for this application. I respect Eric's experience, but not having used it myself, would be hesitant to do so.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Monday, December 07, 2015 - 10:50 pm:

I must admit,JB may not be a good idea. Think warmth may dissolve it?
1 thing I failed to mention in my response.I had 1 hub that I could not tighten the race in. Turns out the hub was cracked and simply spreading.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 12:45 am:

Loctite may not work well if the race is very loose. These products depend on the absence of air to cure. JB works quite well on these. I have done lots of them with no known failures. I do have to draw the line sometimes. There are some hubs that need to be scrapped for safety's sake. I throw out hubs that are cracked into the race bore or so wallowed out that the outer area of the hub is swollen up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom 30 miles N of Memphis TN on Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 05:46 am:

Loctite (I think 680) will fill a gap of something like .015 and maybe .020 (I forget what it said). You will have to heat to 350 degrees if you ever want to take it back out. Clean the hub with lacquer thinner or MEK or some other such solvent first and the Loctite will cure the issue.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 07:38 am:

I used Loctite sleeve retainer in a similar instance. It wasn't loose enough to worry with trying to knurl it, but if it was, I wouldn't have thought twice about center punching like Donnie said and then using the Loctite sleeve retainer. If money were no object, perhaps I would buy a new hub, but then again, if money were no object, I'd be driving a Duesenberg or a Mercer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steve johnson on Tuesday, December 08, 2015 - 11:41 pm:

Have machine shop make a sleeve with the inside dia .015 smaller than the part of the hub that isn't threaded. Place hub in a press and press this over end of hub without bearing race installed. This will swage the hub back to size. We have repaired lots of hubs. This will work if you do not have any cracks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, December 09, 2015 - 04:22 am:

OK guys, here's why I recommended the red Loctite stud and bearing mount. This was from a former life as a maintenance foreman in the 80's and 90's. The plant that I worked at had a briquette machine, just like what is used to make charcoal briquettes, but it was used to compress lead dust. The business end consisted of two opposing rollers about two feet in diameter. They were made from a hard chrome alloy "tire" that was mounted on a steel hub. These rollers were under several thousand pounds of pressure in order to compress the material, and had nitrogen filled accumulaters to maintain pressure. The company tried different methods of securing the hard chrome "tires" to the steel hubs without success, until they found that by "glueing" the tires to the hubs with red Loctite stud and bearing mount, that cured their problems. With all other methods, such as serrated surfaces, heating and shrinking the tires on the hubs, etc., that created too many stress points and the tires would break because of the brittleness of the hard chrome alloy. Now, that being said, there may well be other products to do the job better, it's been nearly thirty years since then, but I am convinced the red Loctite will hold a wheel bearing race just fine. As I said in a previous post, the center punching will work just fine to snug up the clearance, the Loctite will secure it nicely. If you want to remove the race, you'll have to heat it to break it loose. Again, just my experience, YMMV. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, December 09, 2015 - 04:31 am:

By the way, I would never trust JB Weld in this application. It is great stuff, I've used it many,many times over the years for many different things, but I would NOT use it to secure a bearing. It just isn't tough enough, nothing like Loctite. Also, I agree with what has been posted about using a shim. If you can't get a shim to tighten up the clearance enough, Loctite is your friend. JMHO. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, December 09, 2015 - 10:43 am:

P. Jamison,

What have you decided or done?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By P. Jamison- PA on Wednesday, December 09, 2015 - 12:12 pm:

Lots of good tips; I'm sure most of them would fix the problem. I plan to work on it this weekend. I ordered some Loctite 640 sleeve retainer and also 39150 Bearing Mount Stick. I'll check the hub for cracks, as suggested, then clean off the grease, insert the race and mount the wheel.

Phil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Sullivan on Wednesday, December 09, 2015 - 09:26 pm:

Locktite 660 is the thickest fixer upper I know, it's about like peanut butter, (except the taste) it's hard to find sometimes, and sometimes you have to show it to the countermen in the book, works good, used it lots. Dave in Bellingham, WA


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By P. Jamison- PA on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 07:26 am:

I used Loctite 39150 Bearing Mount Stick. This looks rather like a large Chapstik with about the same consistency. I applied it to both surfaces and tapped in the bearing race, turning it some. I then mounted the wheel to align it. The next day, the race was firmly in place. Time will tell if it holds under use, but I'll see. I saw no cracks in the hub.
Phil


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