How fast does the starter need to spin?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: How fast does the starter need to spin?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 01:25 am:

Sometimes people wonder how fast the starter needs to spin the motor to start a Model T. Here's how fast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pv6HWWOGYA


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 05:23 am:

Well done Steve. Point proven.

All of the "Gotta be 12 volts or it'll never start" crowd should be forced to watch this. Bravo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 06:29 am:

Fine demo Steve,

The woody didn't run for a few weeks. Yesterday morning I turned it over three times to prime the car, set on the contact and I didn't need to turn it over, I had a free start.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 08:25 am:

Looks like you need a new starter. The one you have is getting old. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor - Kenilworth, NJ on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 08:35 am:

A challenge of electric starting is the competition for electoral power during cranking. The starter draws considerable current from the battery which may cause the voltage necessary to operate the coils to drop significantly depending upon the resistance(V=I*R). A weak battery (high internal resistance) coupled with poor battery connections (battery terminal to wire, wire terminal to wire, terminal to ground strap, ground strap to chassis ground, etc.) The lower the voltage drops, the longer it takes the coil to build up the magnetic field before firing. The delay in firing retards the timing further than the already fully retarded timing set by the spark lever which can make starting more difficult.

Eliminate the voltage drops by eliminating the high resistances and the voltage will be higher, the starter will crank faster and coil dwell time to fire is quicker. The engine starts easier giving the false impression faster cranking solved the problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 09:04 am:

Mike,


"...the competition for electoral power..."

Our upcoming presidential candidates will have the same challenge.

Really though, thanks for the background info.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 09:43 am:

If you've ever heard 6 volt cars crank, besides the T of course, you'd know they all sound like they'll never make it. Cool one Steve.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor - Kenilworth, NJ on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 09:53 am:

Oops, make that competition for electrical power during cranking.

Also forgot to mention voltage droop due to higher than normal resistance slows the starter down giving the impression slower cranking is the problem when in fact it is another symptom of the problem; low voltage.

Hand cranking also produces abnormally low voltage so coils require longer dwell time to fire which is another reason why it helps to advance the spark a few clicks to facilitate starting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 10:04 am:

Mike are you sure how it works???????????? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 01:35 pm:

Hand cranking a stubborn T also causes energy drain on the human! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 01:58 pm:

Can't read this entire thread without thinking about a commonly used term back in the days of the "brass era" Model "T's. A commonly used term "back in the day" was the "hotshot battery". Don't hear it much nowadays, but as a kid in the '40's & '50's, it was common to hear the old folks reminiscing about the old days and the Model "T's, and using a "hotshot battery" in wintertime. Just the word "hotshot" would lead one to believe that the ol' timers" might not have totally understood all of the electrical intricacies of the Model "T", but they DID know what enabled easier starting, especially in cold weather and difficult and slow hand cranking in winter,....FWIW,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Fischer - Arroyo Grande, CA on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 02:15 pm:

Regarding "If you've ever heard 6 volt cars crank ......."

I have theorized that people who cut their teeth on 6 volt cars accept that sound as normal. For the younger set, it's cause for alarm.

To us old folks, a 12 volt car sounds like it could drive into town even if you were out of gas. To the younger generation, a 6 volt car sounds like the battery is about to die.

It's all a matter of perspective.

Dick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 03:08 pm:

Dick - yeah, and the old flathead Fords,....seems like especially Fords of the '40's and early '50's, had a particular "growl" from the starter, I suppose the mesh of the bendix pinion and ring gear that I've always liked the sound of. Sounded like the 6 volt battery had just barely enough "juice" left to turn the engine over, but that was the normal sound from a 6 volt Ford flathead starter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 03:13 pm:

Oh, and reflecting back, for some reason, I still like a starter button instead of the modern "key-twist" ignition switch with 1st twist position "ignition on", and spring loaded further twist of the key to engage the starter. Don't know why,....just like the separate starter button on the dash,.....weird,.....huh?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John C Codman on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 05:45 pm:

I had a series of 6v cars including a '49 Plymouth, a '50 Plymouth, a '51 Buick straight eight, and a '53 Mercury flathead V8. All cranked well and started easily.I am not including a '28 Oldsmobile and a '35 Chevy - both of which cranked slower then I'm used to, but both of which started reliably. Thinking about it, my '38 Chevy cranked and started easily as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 08:15 pm:

I've seen that done before, but my car does not turn over that easily. I can't chalk it up to anything more than having really good compression. The crank fights me the whole way like I'm trying to collapse a big air bubble. If I let go, the crank flies backwards.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 08:55 pm:


Harold, don't forget about the starter pedal. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 10:22 pm:

Steve, I think your floormat has a hole in it! Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 02:46 am:

Right Steve,....Whatever kind of car that is in your picture, the starter pedal is located about where the Model A starter pedal is, except that this one is a lot larger. Guess that was okay, but I still like the ol' starter button, even if starting the engine was a "two-handed operation! That wouldn't by any chance be your old Dodge truck would it Steve?

One that I really disliked was the Buick system whereby you had to depress the accelerator pedal all the way to the floor to engage the starter! Can't remember just what years Buick did that, but some of the '50's cars for sure!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 03:11 am:

Harold, Chevy pickups and trucks were like that too. I didn't like them either! It was damn hard to pump the accelerator when it was cold and keep the starter going. Besides that, the rubber "bellows" on the pedal shaft was always shot, which let in a lot of cold air in the winter. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 11:07 am:

Some of the Studebakers had the starter switch under the clutch pedal, you had to push the clutch all the way to the floor to engage the starter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 11:47 am:

My dad had a 1937 Chevy Master DeLuxe that had starter linkage that engaged with the accelerator pedal. As soon as the engine started a metal tab would get pulled away from a notch in the accelerator rod by way of vacuum. There was no way to pump the gas without engaging the starter if the engine wasn't running. I'm sure that didn't last long in production.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 12:03 pm:

Harold, yes, that's the old Dodge. Chrysler vehicles had that feature for years. You can hold down the starter pedal with the front of your foot and pump the gas with your heel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 12:47 pm:

AhhhHaaa,......"heel & toe", huh? Just like A.J. Foyt and the boys, right? Well, maybe not quite the same,.......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Fischer - Arroyo Grande, CA on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 03:03 pm:

"Hold down the starter pedal with the front of your foot and pump the gas with your heel."

'Fraid I'm not coordinated enough to do that myself. I've always liked the Model A where you press the starter pedal with your foot while manipulating the choke with your right hand and throttle with your left. Then a quick move to the spark advance once the engine starts.

Dick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 04:26 pm:

How hard do you have to push on the foot rest [called that for want of a better name] before you realize it's not the starter button?? Bud in Wheeler,Mi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, December 12, 2015 - 11:19 am:

About this fast:

https://youtu.be/NWjb5mRxSwA


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Skingley ......Westland, Michigan on Sunday, December 13, 2015 - 06:27 am:

On starters, I helped a friend put in the oil retention seal mod. His TT would crank very slow and while the starter was out we tested it on the bench. It would hardly turn, same as in the car. It turned out to be a tight nose bushing, that was not checked after installed. The nose bushing was new. I would test run a slow starter on the bench just to be sure.


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