Early Canadian block question

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Early Canadian block question
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Thursday, December 10, 2015 - 09:21 pm:

Can anyone tell me, that when Canada started block production in May 1913, did they have freeze plugs fitted some several months before the USA transition from pipe plugs to freeze plugs in Dec 13?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Findlay on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 02:58 am:

Frank
I have Canadian engine C4693. It has the square pipe plugs still. Looks like it might have been an August?? engine.
Ken


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 04:37 am:

Thanks ken, I haven't seen this block as yet, but don't wish to buy it if it's not the real deal.
The engine # is C986 and casting date of 5/19/13 so I'm told, but those freeze plugs have me doubting if it's right, unless someone knows and can tell me different!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin in South Africa on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 05:58 am:

I have C5383 cast 8/29/13 and it has the square pipe plugs.

hope this helps
Justin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 06:04 am:

Is there evidence that May Canadian production motors were other than US production castings? Many of them have the made in USA ground/chiselled off, indicating they were US produced, and thus will be the same as US blocks.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin in South Africa on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 06:16 am:

That is what I read also Allan. Mine has the Made in USA ground off the block. On the head, it is also free of Made in USA, but I can't tell if its ground off or just not in the casting. Just looks like rectangular raised areas.

I read/heard that Canada only started casting their own blocks in 1919.

I believe David Chantrell will know better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Eyre on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 06:55 am:

We c7777 with screw in freeze plugs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 06:59 am:

If it was a US production block, the I would expect it to be the pipe plugs,
but the Frontenac motor Company, Ford T specs,
state that the 1913 C engine blocks, started with Canadian castings and the B blocks up to Sept 1913 still in Detroit, right or wrong, I don't know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russ Furstnow on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 07:45 am:

As many of you know, I have been researching Canadian Fords for a Canadian supplement to the MTFCI Judging Guidelines. I have read "In the Shadow of Detroit" by David Roberts, and in the book, it is stated that Ford of Canada started machining and assembling engines in May 1913. These engines began with a "C" followed by the serial number. Prior to May 1913, all Canadian Fords left the factory with American produced engines with American engine numbers. In May 1913, the engines assembled in Canada had "Made in USA" ground off the block.

It is also stated in the book that Ford of Canada began casting it own engine blocks beginning in 1919. While I have not been able to confirm whether these blocks were cast to accept a generator, it is my belief this to be true. The 1919 generator block had "Made in Canada" cast below the Ford script and had a unique reinforcing buttress just below the valve cover behind the generator bracket.

Finally, the cylinder head cast in 1919 had no Ford script or "Made in Canada" cast into the head. All 1919 and later Canadian engine blocks and heads had a casting date with the month, day and year formed in a small circle. This casting date makes it easy to date these parts.

I hope this helps,
Russ Furstnow


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 07:46 am:

The Made in USA is not ground off the finished block. It was never installed on the core that was used to make the casting molds.

This is a December 1913 Canadian block. You can see where the Made in USA would have been screwed to the core mold if the block were destined for USA manufacture:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russ Furstnow on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 08:07 am:

Royce, Your engine block is quite interesting, but I have an April 1914 Canadian engine that clearly has the Made in USA ground off. Canadian Ford production was quite low in 1913 and gained momentum in 1914 and 1915, and I wonder if Ford of America would make unique blocks for Canada? It would be much easier to just grind off Made in USA as production levels in Canada increased. Just my thoughts.
Russ Furstnow


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 08:14 am:

Russ,

I think Ford USA made the core molds for Canada, using the same models that they would have used to make USA blocks. The Made in USA tooling could be removed from the model. You can see the impression of screw heads in my block. This is where the lettering would have been attached to the model if the core mold being cast from the model were destined for the USA casting line in Highland Park.

This was common practice at Ford up through modern times even at the Rouge foundry. You can see a similar arrangement on Model T cylinder heads where the changeable date code logo is screwed to the model.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 09:23 am:

I have (I think) a Feb 13 Canadian T. It has the MADE IN USA ground off and no casting date I can find. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 09:56 am:

Canadian blocks had casting dates originally, just like the USA versions. One can imagine why someone might grind off a casting date.

Here's the original casting date and VIN on the Canadian engine in my garage:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Lautenschlager on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 01:21 pm:

my 1914 touring was built in Walkerville, Ontario, Canada with the following numbers: s/n C2138, casting date 27-13. it has the square frost plugs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 02:05 pm:

Another example of what Royce discussed above:



David from Australia: noted that it was Canadian assembled engine C12280, cast 12-30-13. This was in the following thread of May 2010:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/140611.html

It seems the underlying reason was the tariff regulations of different locations in the UK.

Other parts of the Model T such as radiator, running boards etc. remained "USA" but the more conspicuous location just below the engine registration got this "treatment".

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Carter - South Jersey on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 04:59 pm:

This block, C26xx, was cast on 3/25/13 and the car was assembled on 8/11/13. It has the pipe thread freeze plugs.

I think the "U.S.A." is visible in the picture:
block1
block2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy Traralgon Australia on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 07:37 pm:

Royce, your photos of the made in USA mould fixing are interesting. It sounds like good reasoning. Don't be dismissive of the Made in USA having been ground off though. Many of the early Aussie T blocks have less than impressive efforts of the Made in USA having been ground off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, December 12, 2015 - 02:41 am:

I have a four digit C numbered block with screw in plugs. A 5 digit one has the later hammer in type. Both clearly show the ground off Made in USA.

Three other non generator blocks are different again. Casting dates are low at the back, just above the pan rail. 11-31-16, 9-11-17 and 1-4-18 all have late type freeze plugs but none of the blocks has either the FORD script or Made in USA/Canada.

If Russ's observation that Canada started producing their own castings to co-incide with the introduction of the generator blocks, then these were cast in the US.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Saturday, December 12, 2015 - 03:13 am:

Allan,
It sure is all a mix, just returned from returning a borrowed trailer from Warrick Landy and going through a few blocks on his shelving is a
'Made in Canada'
under the Ford logo, non genny block, casting date Feb 1918.
Maybe he can post a photo later.
Sure making the 1919 genny block as first, just another myth!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russ Furstnow on Saturday, December 12, 2015 - 06:30 am:

Frank,
Thanks for the information regarding the February 1918 block with Made in Canada cast into the block. This helps with my study of Canadian Fords. If you find an earlier Canadian block I would like to hear about it.
Russ Furstnow


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy Traralgon Australia on Saturday, December 12, 2015 - 06:45 am:


Here it is guys. February 1918! I will contact other Aussie and Canadian T guys and see if wee can find an earlier one???
Russ, have you studied just how many items have made in Canada on them? Our Aussie Fords have Made in Canada on numerous items. exhaust manifolds, ignition switch cover plates, running boards axles etc! Lots still to learn learn about Canadian Fords!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy Traralgon Australia on Saturday, December 12, 2015 - 07:29 am:

John, yout picture is very typical of what our Aussie blocks look like! someone has done a rough job of chiselling off the Made in USA. some were chiselled, some were ground. I suspect all blocks were USA sourced until roughly around 1916/17 when the first Canadian blocks were cast.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russ Furstnow on Saturday, December 12, 2015 - 08:27 am:

Warwick,
I've been going through the Canadian Service Bulletins and have found some interesting information there. Also, many MTFCI and MTFCA members have shared information about their Canadian Fords.

One issue that keeps coming up, though, is the fact that many Canadian Fords have reproduction replacement parts made for American Fords (since that is what is available), making it difficult to properly identify what was original to the car. The second issue is that there is VERY little documented information pertaining to the Canadian Ford.

I'm going to continue to proceed and will document my findings. Thanks for the help.
Russ Furstnow


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, December 12, 2015 - 10:15 am:

Warwick,

I am dismissive when someone tells me that the Made in USA was ground off each block. That's silly and illogical.

What does make sense is that the Made in USA was scraped or chiseled off the model that was used to make the molds for blocks. There would have been multiple models so that mold production could be faster. What I believe we are seeing is one model where the Made in USA was crudely chiseled off. Then we are seeing another model where the Made in USA can be removed easily to make Canadian Molds or USA molds.

There is a mold number forward of the water inlet on the LH side of the block that might tie some of this together if we can see a few more examples. In this case it is 2P7:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, December 12, 2015 - 06:13 pm:

Royce, what you are saying would make some sense if there was any consistency in the removal of the Made in USA. In my experience, there is none. They are at best ground off like the green block in Ken Parker's post. At worst, they are quite obviously chiseled off. I will try to get some photos for you.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Findlay on Sunday, December 13, 2015 - 02:36 am:

My 13 engine has the Made in USA ground off
Ken


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, December 13, 2015 - 03:26 am:

I am trying to find photos of a July 1911 casting block sold at an auction a few years ago. Of particular interest was the C three digit engine number, indicating early May 1913 Canadian production. This block had the Made in USA ground off too.
While it may be "silly and illogical" to grind off the lettering post casting, it clearly was the case. Either that, or Ford in the USA anticipated the opening of the Canadian plant and began castings for it almost two years in advance.

The time discrepancy between the casting of that block and its eventual assembly is puzzling. Perhaps it was at the bottom of the pile of castings produced in the USA, and was among the last loaded, and when shipped to Canada it was one of the first off.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Monday, December 14, 2015 - 03:15 am:

I'm with Royce here. Ford was very focused on time so I doubt he would set 10 employees to stand using maybe 5 minuttes on each block grinding or chisling that text "Made in USA" away. I think they have just filled the letters in the form by hand with a little sand before molding. That will just take a few seconds.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Victor Bloxsome on Monday, December 14, 2015 - 06:20 am:

My Canadian block has Engine # C220026 and casting date 9 11 19 , the car first registered in 1921 as Q2116 ( for Queensland ) )to M.M. RAE of Brisbane Street , Ipswich ; although being " out of town" before Q plate license numbers became compulsory it may not have had a regional Ipswich # in 1920 . I recovered it from the Rae estate with a crude downdraught carb , running a sawbench on the producer gas generated by the sawdust - since WW2 ! The water passages were totally clogged with tar .

Victor ,,,,,,,,,, Peel Roadster 1919 . Built in Brisbane Qld .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Monday, December 14, 2015 - 04:46 pm:

I have a 1914 block with clear casting date of 9/14/14 it has pipe plugs.

Despite what Royce thinks it is obvious to us in Australia that the made in Canada was ground or sanded off (you can see the sanding marks) or chiselled off. In a lot of cases it was done so badly the made in USA is still visible. Maybe there were some casting cores that were used for Ford Canada but many were just USA blocks.

As to filling in letters or having 10 employees spending 5 minutes removing the text that is just not reasonable. The blocks would have been cast in Detroit shipped across to Canada where they would then have the "made in USA" removed before they went to the machine shop. This was a problem for Ford Canada who operated completely separately the Ford Detroit.

The removal was to avoid extra duty in the British Empire countries such as Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Asian countries which belonged.

In 1915 the Australian Government attempted to ban Fords because of Henry Fords views on the great War. Ford Canada had to explain they were separate from Ford USA and also had men fighting in the war. Even in the 1920's many here in Australia still thought the Ford was USA made (listings in magazines marked the Ford as USA made) they just didn't see Canada as being another country and part of the British Empire.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Monday, December 14, 2015 - 11:15 pm:

Opps meant made in USA not Canada first sentence.

that's what happens when you are racing to do something before you go out


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 04:09 am:

Peter Kable made the point that the Made in USA was removed to get around tarrifs imposed by British Empire countries. Canada being a member, its exports did not attract the tarrifs, most likely a strong reason for the establishment of the Canadian plant.

Canadian production going to other markets may not have attracted the tarrifs. Hence, grinding of the Made in USA may only have been done on product destined for a particular destination. In these circumstances, it is reasonable to surmise that the grinding/chiselling may have been done on completed chassis just prior to shipment.

It would be interesting to hear from others in Empire countries.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Colin Mavins Winnipeg,Canada on Saturday, December 19, 2015 - 06:39 pm:

Here is another one for Russ Furstnow We have picked up a Canadian 1916 engine, it has cast iron pistons heavy rods two piece valves. ser no C52019 Jan 1916, block cast# 1 Cast date 12 10 1 it does not have screw in frost plugs. It has Ford on the block and nothing ever under the ford. The head is a low head cast # 6 cast date 1 11 1 Just ford No made in the USA on it. popjpeg{596048,}


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, December 19, 2015 - 09:29 pm:

Colin, you have an interesting find. The casting date is still at the top just aft of the water outlet, like the early blocks. Then the 'Made in....' was deleted, but the Ford retained. On my two later blocks, the casting date is low adjacent to the rear of the pan rail, and there is no Ford logo.
The plot thickens.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Saturday, December 19, 2015 - 11:06 pm:

I have 1916 block C58637. Casting date 12 21 1? which is similar but appears to be a 5 ( the 15 part maybe was a tad worn out by December.)

and the casting date same position which says 2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Elenbaas - Granger, Washington on Saturday, December 19, 2015 - 11:11 pm:

Here is one similar to Colin's having the Ford script and a 1-20-17 casting date adjacent to the water outlet. What I find amusing is how they stamped the serial# on it. When they ran out of room they just went a line down and squeezed it in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, December 19, 2015 - 11:56 pm:

James,you have just added further confusion to the discussion.
Your block shows the earlier short engine number register, hence the need for the extra digit stamped below. Your casting date of 1 20 17 is later than that of my 1917 shooting brake at 11 31 16. But my block, earlier than yours, has the wider register for the engine number, C130 186.

Mine also has the casting date down by the pan rail, not up on the waterjacket, and no Ford logo.

By the way, can anyone explain why my block bears the casting date for 31 November?

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Elenbaas - Granger, Washington on Sunday, December 20, 2015 - 01:12 am:

Allan, will you be attending the rally next year in Warragul? If so we will see you there.
Also it seems strange that my serial # is lower but cast nearly 2 months later.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Sunday, December 20, 2015 - 03:56 am:

These are the 2 earliest cylinder blocks I have come across with "Made in Canada" Cast into them. Both came from southern Queensland.

134636, Cast Monday, 29 October 1917

137133, Cast Saturday, 10 November 1917

I'm told that these dates are before the contracted foundry company involved, was incorporated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Sunday, December 20, 2015 - 04:16 am:

What is written here in this discussion also relates to Cylinder heads. Like Royce Said, some of the heads had the "Made in USA" part of the pattern removed, while, like others said, others had it ground off. The grinding was a lot neater than what they did on the Cylinders


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, December 20, 2015 - 04:23 am:

Mark, that raises another question, if grinding off the "Made in USA" on heads was done, why no Ford logo up to late 12 Canadian ones as well?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, December 20, 2015 - 06:42 am:

James, we hope to be there in my new roadster. If not, it'll be my 1917 shooting brake with the engine mentioned above.

See you there.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, December 20, 2015 - 10:13 am:

James Elenbas block was cast from molds that were made on an earlier model. Thus it had the serial number pad used on earlier style blocks of a lowere serial number.

The models for the molds would have been in Detroit. Molds would have been shipped to Canada so that the actual casting could take place there. The "Made in USA" would have been removed from the model, not from the molds or from any finished part.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Monday, December 21, 2015 - 04:49 am:

Gents

I have personally owned at least 10 Canadian 1914-1916 blocks with "Made in USA" ground off, not the patter tag removed before they were cast. That how the majority of them from that era, left Canada and arrived in Australia.



Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration