Valve job in the car

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Valve job in the car
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike-Iowa on Monday, December 14, 2015 - 09:00 pm:

Need some advice. Can valve seat be reground without removing the engine in a 1914? Specifically the #8 valve seat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By P. Jamison- PA on Monday, December 14, 2015 - 09:15 pm:

Yes. Some use the stones, others (including me) like the Neway cutters. You'll find several Forum mentions on this subject:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/480233.html?1411089926

Phil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By P. Jamison- PA on Monday, December 14, 2015 - 09:26 pm:

By the way, I could use the Neway cutter on #8 valve seat with a wrench. The T-handle wouldn't fit with the firewall in the way.

Phil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike-Iowa on Monday, December 14, 2015 - 09:41 pm:

Thanks, which Neway cutter do you use for a model t with original size valves? I plan to use .015 oversize SS replacement valves.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, December 14, 2015 - 10:21 pm:

It is no problem after you remove the firewall.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Monday, December 14, 2015 - 10:29 pm:

The guy who did the valve job on the '20 Coupe I had needed to move the engine forward a bit to get to the rearmost seat with his grinder.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, December 14, 2015 - 10:37 pm:

It's bad enough trying to do the seats in the car but if you are thinking of over reaming the guides as well, I'd save that for next time the engine is out for a full rebuild.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Monday, December 14, 2015 - 11:31 pm:

Mike,

Yes, you can cut the valve seats in a 14 with neway seat cutters with the engine in the car. You have to remove the firewall in order to ream the valve guide in number 8 to .015 or .030 oversize and have room to cut the seat. The cutters are pricy for someone who is only going to do 1 or 2 T motors. I think I paid about $300 for my set with pilots and guide reamers about 15 years ago. I have done about 8 motors and my T friends have done more motors with my set than I have done. I have cutters 1 3/4 diameter #642 and 643. They will cut a 3 angle (15' 46' and 60') seat. The valve has a 45 degree angle and when ground into the 46 degree seat makes a perfect seat. FWIIW I use Stainless Steel valves purchased from Lang's and have never had to redo any valves after countless miles.

(Message edited by paulmikeska on December 14, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Monday, December 14, 2015 - 11:53 pm:

Sorry, I originally posted the wrong numbers for the neway cutters and had to edit. For a T (and a A) the cutters are 1 3/4 diameter #642 and 643 (not 652 and 653). I should not post after about 9:00!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 12:41 am:

By the way.......the guides were reamed too.....with the engine pulled ahead in the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By P. Jamison- PA on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 07:32 am:

If you call Neway, they will send you the set required for a Model T. I got the two cutters, guides, handle plus the parts kit. I was too cheap to get the carrying case. I didn't remove the firewall on my '23 roadster to cut the #8 valve; I just used a wrench on the cutter's hex shaft.

Phil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 08:51 am:

I had to look up what a #643 cutter is. Neway sold me #293. Looks like the same thing I have except mine is 60-degree only and yours is a 60 with 15-degree cutters on the back. I got gypped out of an option!

Those 1-3/4" diameter bodies are the most versatile offering for car work. I have done a lot of different styles of automotive engines with mine, including cylinders cast in jugs where you have to remove a plug and drop the cutter down into the combustion chamber (which limits your options). If you need to go a little more than 1-3/4", you can extend the blades out past the cutter body a bit.

One of the nice things about Neway cutters over stones is it's easy to clean up the mess with a shop vac. Stones throw abrasive grinding dust everywhere.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Husa on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 01:41 pm:

My mechanic who is 93 years young told me that he used a heavy duty rubber band to turn the valve stone next to the firewall with the next closest valve guide set up?
Seems possible?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 05:29 pm:

I have a Sioux valve cutter set that works just dandy. There is a set just like mine on eBay right now at a bargain price:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-SIOUX-Albertson-Co-VALVE-SEAT-INDICATOR-Starrett-Di al-TAPER-PILOTS-in-Case-/161898329816?hash=item25b1e476d8:g:-W0AAOSwwE5WVkvw&ite m=161898329816&vxp=mtr&autorefresh=true


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike-Iowa on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 06:09 pm:

Lots of good information flowing here. So for the typical replacement valve supplied by T parts vendors would you use a 1 3/4 " cutter or 1 1/2" cutter? I think the valves measure something like 1 9/32" or 1 17/64". Those measurements seem to imply the need for a 1 1/4" cutter?
I plan to use the simple 45 degree angle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 06:26 pm:

The Neway cutters I have will cut seats from about 1 1/8 up to 1 3/4. When you recut a seat the diameter of the seat area increases a little bit. The seat on the valve ideally would be midway on the taper. As you recut the seats in the block the valves will sit a little lower and the seat on the valve will move up the taper a little. Eventually you would need bigger valves or have a machine shop install new seats in the block.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lovejoy, So Cal on Thursday, December 17, 2015 - 01:32 am:

I did mine in car with the neway cutters was pleased with the results, good luck


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike-Iowa on Friday, December 18, 2015 - 06:09 am:

Thanks, a set of Neways are on the way to my shop, didn't take much convincing after I talked to Claude Jochmann.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Friday, December 18, 2015 - 02:08 pm:

Mike,

I love my Neway valve seat tools, but it takes some practice and skill to achieve the best results.

First, make sure you have a tight fitting pilot in the valve guide. Neway makes pilots that range from about -.002 to +.002 for each size. Reamed guides will vary slightly from hole to hole, and I often use three different pilots, the specified size and the plus and minus .001 sizes.

Second, you should use a valve sear runout indicator to insure the valve seat you are cutting is perpendicular to the valve guide.

Third, the valve seat runout gage teaches you that you must apply consistent, even, straight down pressure when turning the cutter into the seat. If you apply more pressure to one side or part of the seat than elsewhere it will cause the cutter to dig into the seat more in one spot than in others, and this will make it harder for the valve to seal properly. Personally, I find this job to be harder than it looks. You can't rush the seat cutting and get a good result.

Fourth, and this is related to my third point, it is difficult to cut a good, true seat on number 4 exhaust valve with the engine in the car and the dash in place. It is very difficult to achieve straight downward pressure in this situation. So I recommend that you remove the dash (firewall) before attempting to cut number 4 exhaust valve's seat.

I have cut number 4 seats with the dash in place when in a pinch, but the results are never as good as the other 7 seats.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Friday, December 18, 2015 - 02:19 pm:

Expanding pilots are the way to go if you don't want to fuss with solid pilots. Everyone that does this should have a Goodson catalog laying around in the event Neway doesn't have exactly what you want:

https://www.goodson.com/Pilots/

When doing the #8 seat, I turn the cutter with a 1/4" ratchet. That leaves your left hand free to control how the cutter engages with the seat. Also, when turning, I engage soft and disengage soft so the cutter isn't going "crunch crunch crunch" with ugly stop / start marks. Sometimes to help control engagement you can add a light spring under the cutter as is often used with stones.


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