Old Photo- AWM 17

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Old Photo- AWM 17
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dane Hawley Near Melbourne Australia on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 04:24 am:



Caption- "Major General Chaytor with Brigadier General Cox, who is about to step into a car, serial no. LC 1357. The formation sign on the door is a silver leaf over an upturned boomerang."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 04:31 am:

That would be the first 15/16 or later? RHD T I've seen with a high diff plug, maybe a pommie one that used USA parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 08:43 am:

Frank,

Bottom line up front: Appears to be a 1917 black radiator car with the correct rear axle that has the filler plug level with the axle shafts (higher than the later 1919 rear axles that had a lower plug).

Additional details:

Frank thanks for posting. I needed an extra cup of coffee for this one.

First as always – if the parts were switched around which happened a lot during WWI then it would be difficult to tell what year the car actually was manufactured. But “assuming” the parts are all from the original car we still have the problem of the change over dates. The changes for Canadian parts is not nearly as well documented as those for the USA cars. Russ Furstnow is working to gather information on the Canadian cars, what changed when etc.

++++++++++++++++++++
From his posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/593303.html?1450170542#POST791054 he shared:

By Russ Furstnow on Friday, December 11, 2015 - 07:45 am:
As many of you know, I have been researching Canadian Fords for a Canadian supplement to the MTFCI Judging Guidelines.
++++++++++++++++

I have been meaning to drop him a note suggesting he do some of the research on the MTFCA site since it has a lot of visitors and posters. Russ – if you are reading this please let us know if you would like that. And either way – please send him information about the Canadian cars.

So in our dating of the photo we are mostly using the USA change over dates since we do NOT have a good listing of change over dates for Ford of Canada which supplied Australia and other British Commonwealth Countries (but not England).

Note if you zoom in you can tell that the front fender is a curved 1917 or later rather than a straight 1916 or earlier.



You can also see the crown on the left rear fender which indicates late 1916 to 1925 rear fender.



The equal length windshield hinges are form 1915-mid 1917 for USA cars. I asked in a previous thread if anyone had any documentation on when Ford of Canada made that transition – earlier, about the same time as USA, or later, but so far I have not seen any responses. If anyone has additional data on when Ford of Canada and/or when is Australian cars the windshield hinges changed from the 1915-mid 1917 equal length style to the later unequal length style please let us know.



The right rear fender clearly shows the late 1916 to 1925 crown compared to the curved but without a crown on the 1915-1916 rear fenders. And the photo clearly shows the filler plug is level with the axles (higher than the later style).
Note the USA rear axle center section came out with the lowered fill plug after around Jan 1919 ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc19.htm
JAN 18, 1919 Acc. 575, Box 11, Ford Archives
T-7610 right rear axle housing. Oil hole relocated to a point 1-3/4'' below the centerline.
So if the parts are all original to the car, and assuming (which can cause problems) that Ford of Canada was within six months of the USA change over dates the car with the unequal length windshield hinges and crowned fenders would be a 1917.
Frank you commented, “That would be the first 15/16 or later? RHD T I've seen with a high diff plug, maybe a pommie one that used USA parts.”
I did some quick looking and I did not any early original photos of 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918 or 1919 Canadian cars that showed the rear axle filler plug clearly. Most photos are from the side or 3/4 and have people blocking the details we would like to see. I do have one photo of a 1916 Canadian produced and delivered to Australia T. It is # C55005 located in the Power House Museum in Australia (see their web site at: http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/menu.php From the photos and description it appears to be a fairly original example. Of course we will never know for sure if the rear axle was or was not changed out. I think it is probably the original rear axle because it has the filler plug level with the center line rather than the later lower style. See the photo below:



The information from the museum for that T: In 1938 this Model T was donated to the Museum by Hunt Bros. (Sydney) Motors Pty Ltd, Ford Metropolitan dealers, whose office and showroom was at 29 Church Street, Parramatta. It had been used by them from time to time for sales promotions and advertising purposes and was in running order at least up to 1936.

The car was put into storage by the Museum and in the early 1980s was chosen as one of the chief objects in a recreation of a 1930s garage, an exhibition planned to be included in Stage 2 of the Powerhouse Museum when it opened in 1988. The car was cleaned and partly restored in 1982 by Ossie's Antique Restorations Pty Ltd of Smithfield to reflect a well cared-for car of the 1930s. New tyres were fitted and wheels replaced, paintwork and bodywork undertaken, the upholstery was cleaned and preserved, the hood was treated, the back panel with celluloid window was replaced with matching material and the radiator was cleaned and polished. The 1930s garage exhibition did not eventuate, but the car did go on display at the Ford Discovery Centre at Geelong, Victoria, from 1999 until 2002. In 2008 it was exhibited in the Display Store of the Powerhouse Discovery Centre to commemorate the centenary of the first Model T.
I need to run, but if anyone else has some early photos showing the rear axle filler plug on Canadian Ts from 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918, 1919 – please let us know. As well as surviving cars. I personally suspect some 1915-early 1919 rear axles would have been replaced over the years with the much more plentiful and in better shape later 1919-1925 rear axles. In the USA there was a time before WWII when you could go to the city dump and find a good used rear axle for free. All you had to do was remove it.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 05:13 pm:

Hap, you must have mist the last time the topic of the plugs came up.
The best question to ask is, can anyone post a period photo of a Canadian smooth backing plate diff with a high plug?
That photo of the power house T is a low filler plug not the high which would be inline with the axle height bolt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 05:28 pm:

Hap, Thank you so much for all your cataloging and posting! It is excellent! But, I have to disagree with one of your points. Possibly a misinterpretation, or error in the rush to post before going to work?
The photo you posted above is " one photo of a 1916 Canadian produced and delivered to Australia T. It is # C55005 located in the Power House Museum in Australia " and " is probably the original rear axle because it has the filler plug level with the center line rather than the later lower style. "
Except that the filler plug in the photo (at least to my eye) does not line up with the rear-most pumpkin bolt as the high-fill housings do. The angle of the photo (and the support rod) is creating some illusions. I am confused a bit trying to decide which of two bolts actually IS the rear-most bolt. But does it matter? The fill plug does not line up with either of them.
I went out to my freezing cold shop where I am trying to work on the rear end for my '15 runabout. It has the typical USA high fill plug. I laid the housing on the floor and attempted to duplicate the angle in my mind. Somehow, I am still doubting what I see? But I am fairly convinced that the photo you posted shows an early rear end with a low fill plug actually supporting Frank v E's statement.
I find it very interesting that Canadian Ford would have made that change fully three years and more than two million USA production cars earlier than the USA production cars would have made that change. I am so used to simply looking at the fill plug in relation to the bolt hole in my quest for earlier housings for many years. The idea that a 1915 housing from Canada would have a low fill plug just doesn't work for me. But that is the way it appears to be.

Since the original photo beginning this thread does have the lined up high fill plug rear end, it must likely be a USA rear end. Since the car is right hand drive (the numbers are all facing the proper direction), It must be a Canadian production car. About the only other option would be an England built tourer with either a Canadian or USA body? Would any have been built that way during the war? Were any other assembly plants around Europe providing right hand drive at that time?
I think there is a very high likelihood that the car in the photo was Canadian produced, but had the rear end swapped out, and replaced with one from a USA car.

One thing we should be sure about by now. A model T. Fifteen million cars alike. No two alike.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
And THANK YOU again Hap, for all your wonderful posts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 05:31 pm:

Frank v E beat me to the POST button! (I write slow) (And get interrupted a lot)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, December 15, 2015 - 08:20 pm:

Frank & Wayne,

Oops, my bad -- you are both correct!

And if anyone can find an early photo of a relatively new Canadian 1915, 1916, 1917, or 1918 showing the filler plug that is high please let us know. Otherwise it appears that Canada changed the style of rear axle center housing to the lower level plug several years before the USA did.

Thank you for the correction,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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