What gear puller works the best for getting it off with out wrecking the gear. Need to get it off to clear/clean the internal oil line.
You mean this gear?
I made some special arms for a two-jaw puller.
This is the tool I made from a spare socket for removing that special nut.
I wouldn't worry about damaging the fiber gear. I'd throw it away and get an original gear or a new aluminum or bronze one.
That's the problem Steve, Derrick's gear looks almost new and he doesn't want to spend the dough for one of those better gears. We have to pull this one nice a neat.
If he has a generator or alternator on the car which is run from the timing gear, he has two points of wear and the gear will wear out twice as fast. It is worth the expense to replace with aluminum or steel gear.
I don't mean to stir the pot, but I have a question. Obviously fiber cam gears are in use in a number of T's (no doubt in other engines too). Are crank shaft gears pressed on or machined out of the crank shaft casting? If they're pressed on, are there fiber gears available? What about the generator gear? Same question.
I don't know much about gears, but it seems to me that using common material for parts that touch each other as gears do would be an advantage. Using a fiber gear with a much harder metal gear seems to me to be a sure fire recipe for eventual early failure.
Anyhow, just thinking out loud about a subject I know enough about to talk myself into a corner within a minute or two.
I had a fiber gear wear out in about 1000 miles. Replaced it with an aluminum gear. It's been over 20K miles since then. No generator on my car.
Henry all the other gears that are available for the crank or the generator are steel. Just get rid of the fiber gear. Then you won't have a problem with a timing gear for a very long time.
George, I am with Steve on this one. It would be best if you ruined the gear getting it off. It will fail. It's just a matter of when. If you value your time, just work out how long it will take to do the job all over again when needed, and then subtract the value of an aluminium gear. I would certainly be in deficit.
Allan from down under.
Thanks Royce. That's what I thought. Sounds to me like the fiber cam gear is a very costly money saving item.
Henry, you're right about other cars having them too. If I had a late model Hudson I'd check it out and see what's in there.
I have over 100,000 miles on my 24 touring all with fiber gears. The teeth on the first one striped at 37,000 miles when my crank broke, that may have saved my Block.
I like fiber gears.
The fiber gear broke on my dad's 48 Stude truck while he was hauling a load of hay. He hitchhiked to town, replaced the gear on the side of the highway. But the timing cover gasket leaked, and before he checked the oil, lost #1 rod bearing.
Both George and I agree, that the fiber gear is rubbish and should be replaced with something a bit more robust. But this is Derrick's car, he's in school, working part time and lives on a meager budget. He can't really afford any of those better gears, so we have to do this like I said nice and neat. Later down the road when he's better established (or the car's decided that for him), maybe then he can swap it out for something better. But for now, we can only do so much...and that ain't a lot (personally I'd like to tear that rear axle apart too, there's something not right in there too, the passenger side outer bearing is sitting 1/2 inch further inside the housing than it should).
fiber gears are a sure disaster, would never run one. They are not worth the trouble to install.
Surely you can find a used ford iron gear somewhere.
It's like installing an asphalt roof on your house instead of a steel one. It will work, but for how long?
I'm running a nylon gear made by Jacque White, sold through Lang's and others. 10,000 miles so far but I carry an NOS steel gear with me just in case.
Hear here Dave! After getting hail damage in 2011, I put a steel one on "just in time" re the insurance window. Cost me an extra bundle over what the insurance paid but well worth it. I love it. Let it hail, let it hail, let it hail.
My first personal car was a 1953 Chevy 235 cu in. It had a fiber gear that gave it up. I was in college at the time.
Thanks for the reply Tim. I also just got a steel roof and love it. After having climbed on the roof to smack a raccoon with a shovel for digging a hole through my roof, I said never again. Back to cars, there are tons of used parts around, is it that hard or expensive to find an original Ford gear?
All three gears are pressed on and can be replaced. It is a good idea when rebuilding an engine to replace all 3. Or 2 if you don't have a generator. I think the fiber gear was made to run quieter, but it is also weaker. When the timing gear breaks, the engine quits wherever you are.
The clearance between the cam gear and crankshaft gear is determined by the bore of the bearings. The camshaft bearing should be centered. The crankshaft distance from the camshaft is determined when the bearings are line bored. Usually there is little wear on the block side of the main bearing, and so the clearance remains the same as it was when the bearings were poured. An aluminum gear is a bit softer than a steel gear but much harder than fiber and makes a good replacement cam gear especially when you don't replace the other gears. The aluminum will rapidly wear to fit the other gear and then after running in will last a long time.
George, if your coming to the HME after Christmas I'll see if I can bring you guys a steel or other one.
My story NOW is I was on the San Diego Speedster run with my Torpedo and on the Saturday tune up run my fiber gear gave out. it was just in one spot but without that spot you aren't going to limp home. Although we could have changed it out overnight we only missed one day. Tony Bowker had offered me another one that he had but I knew it would not get back together like back home in the garage.
I also won't dispute experience like what Dean has and can also say we have driven many many tours and miles with the fiber one, In the end it failed and was the second breakdown I have ever had while driving my T. The first was a crank shaft in Kanab.
I advise everyone that installs a timing gear to take a couple of minutes and drill and tap two jacking screw holes in the gear BEFORE you install it. It sure makes getting it off easy. It's amazing they don't come with them.
So George, if you'll be at the HME and want a gear let me know and I'll see if I can scrounge up one around here somewhere before then?
Those fiber gears are known as being "silent" gears...they sure are, WHEN they strip out the motor becomes completely silent and done running.
They don't really wear out with warnings of poor performance, they just fail and the teeth strip out then the cam shaft stops turning and no more valve action. An old cam gear off E-bay shouldn't be more than $15 and would probably be fine, I haven't seen too many that are that bad and they don't loose gear teeth suddenly but may make some noise. I would rather hear noise than a silent motor.
I would pull that fiber gear out with a couple of screw drivers and throw it in the trash, you will someday anyway.
Not all fiber gears are made the same! Some are made of ground up fibers and resin (macerated) others are laminated cloth and resin. The ones using ground up fibers are the worse, there are a lot of those that have been used in Model A's and they don't hold up. The ones that are laminated cloth and resin seem to hold up the best and are still used today. I think that if your gear has held up this long it's the laminated not macerated type.
Ok so I agree about the timing gear and someone here probably has a good second hand one that will be much better than the fiber one despite maybe a little noise as it runs in. However the bigger issue and one I hope you will listen to is the rear axle. I'm surprised that no one else has said anything because most of the posters are big into safety. I'm on board with that also. If you don't get that rebuilt now you or your friend may not live to regret it. You even pointed it out that there is something wrong with it. I'm begging you to rebuild the rear axle first, you do that and I'll try and find you a good timing gear. Just imagine coming to a light or 4 way stop and you apply the brakes, nothing happens then you panic and push any pedal you can get your feet on, nothing happens. It's because your rear axle has no thrust washers and has wore the rearend out or the pinion gear has jumped the ring gear and you and your passenger will have to hope that by grace your aren't killed or you've killed somebody. Let me know what you are going to do and I'll start looking,I'd ask anyone else that agrees with this to see what you can find in a good used timing gear and if need be I'll buy it.
I would MUCH prefer to listen to a worn old steel gear knock a bit than run a fiber gear! I have told my 216 Chevy fiber gear story a couple times before.
The problem with fiber gears, in part, is that it depends upon how they were made, and how old they are and how well kept they have been. A good, properly preserved, fiber gear may go for 100,000 miles. But how do you know yours is that good? Thousands of fiber gears have been made cheaply and improperly for model T Fords. Thousands more were well made, but spent decades in damp storage. Both may fail in hundreds of miles? Or less. Or may run for tens of thousands. That land-mine is too easily avoided. Most model T'ers have a worn extra around. They will likely run more than anybody but Dean Y will ever drive.
Dean Yoder is one of the people I hate to ever disagree with. He is one of the top experts here. But on this? Let a worn steel gear knock a little. And yes, his may have saved his block when the crankshaft broke. For that reason alone, I would consider a fiber gear on an early early engine.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
The gear in Steve's first picture looks to be macerated, made out of old ground up BVD's!
The one in Derrick's car looks more like a phenolic than the fiber gears you've got posted here. It actually has a phenolic cloth look.
How many of us remember the dark automotive years of the late '70s when GM cars had nylon timing gears? Those non metallic gears might work fine but, think what happens after years of being soaked in hot motor oil. Also, the rear axle post by John Tannehill is perhaps the best ever.
I'm with Dean Yoder on this. Of course I do my own line boring
You are correct John that the bigger issue is the rear axle problems that can lead to no brakes and a "hay wagon" going down the road with no breaks. If there are babbit thrust washers they need to be removed and replaced with modern bronze...we all missed that. What we also all missed is that the original post asked what puller is required to remove the cam gear. A puller is not needed but he needs to remove the cam nut and no socket will fit. In the old days they would sometimes use a punch to drive it off on the flats but I made a tool like Steve has done.
Fiber gears are ok but NOT in the cars that run
Generator I had to swap out many fiber gears on model T's never had an orginal or after market medal gear fail
How many of us remember the dark automotive years of the late '70s when GM cars had nylon timing gears? I well remember spending an unexpected week in a motel in Trinidad after the Suburban's nylon timing gear failed on I-25, and I waited for new valves and other items to replace wrecked engine parts. I've never been a fan of nylon timing gears since then.
Pay me now or pay me later?
Two years ago our group the "Magneto University" completely rebuilt the magneto on my '26 pickup. At that time the fiber gear was discarded, due to a previous total failure on a different car. It was replaced with a new nylon 7.5 degree advanced gear.
Look at the photo. A few weeks ago I was doing some routine maintenance from below in the crankcase. While there, I shined the light on the small portion of the timing gear that was visible and I thought I could see missing teeth. In the end, 32 teeth had partially broken off, and luckily all 32 were finally found hiding in various places, and most were found in places that were restricting oil flow to the front end. The motor never gave any indication of gear failure and it never skipped a beat. In other words, it never jumped time, it was just waiting for the right opportunity.
The end result was that 50+ hours of my life were spent dealing with this gear failure, but what if....
only one of those 32 teeth had gotten wedged between the magnets and the mag plate?
If this condition had not been found how much $$$ would have been spent repairing the damage, in addition to the hours required for the repair?
A new bronze gear spins there now.
Your friend would be wise to park the T until the gear can be properly replaced. Just my opinion.
32 missing teeth
32 teeth found
....Replaced with Bronze
It took 9 years for the new fibre timing gear to lose it's teeth in my non-generator car. Trying nylon now.
This a bit off topic but is still relevant. In a past life, I had a '72 SS 454 Chevelle. The cast aluminum timing gear with nylon teeth on it(I guess they were molded to the gear) let go, it was a "silent" type timing chain drive. I was told, that as the chain wore, it stretched, and, as it stretched, it put pressure on the nylon teeth. Then, the teeth broke off. The teeth collected in, where else, the oil pump pickup. That lead to a big loss of oil pressure, which caused a spun rod bearing. Needless to say, I replaced the timing gears with a roller chain setup. I never could hear any noise from the "noisey" chain drive. OK, back to our T's. I have an original iron camshaft gear on both of my T's. I can't hear any noise coming from the timing gears that can be heard above all of the other "clatter" from the engine. I would never run a fiber or nylon(plastic) gear on any engine. As always, YMMV. JMHO. Dave
Ok so how come V8's have fibre gears with no problems I don't think a wimpy 10 amp gen puts
that much load on it any more than 16 valve
springs? We just finished up another EAB V8
and reused the fibre gear it had no wear...
Anyways we do have T fibre gears in stock but
we chose to go with the original steel 1923
gear still quiet no problems.
And for David I see a lot of that, not only
454's but others too. poor design in my books.
My '17 torpedo runabout has its original steel timing gears. Contrary to rumor there is no noise from them that is noticeable.
George, to answer your question. Remove the access plate on the bottom of the pan. This will let you use a drift to drive the gear from the back side. Rotate the gear as you proceed. Good luck...
Been there - done that....
Now I run original:
When I rebuilt the engine in my 24 Coupe I replaced the timing gear with a aluminum gear. I do remember that the fiber gear that was in it still looked pretty decent.
I know this may not get an answer but I do wonder why replacement gears are either bronze or aluminum and not steel?
Would reproducing steel gears not be cost effective?
I have a nice steel timing gear I saved out of the engine of my 21 Touring I restored and I replaced it with an aluminum gear.
I thought about using it but went with the aluminum gear which is fine.
To anyone who thinks "The fiber gear still looks excellent, I'll reuse it", I can tell you that they all do, right up till the time they break. Of the 3 I've broken, the remaining teeth looked excellent, it's the missing ones that were a problem.
Model T owners sometimes seem to be a contrarian lot for some reason. Making something work that everyone else says won't is a source of pride for many. Maybe that's why we drive these cars in the first place. Anyway, this would be a bad example of something to be contrary over. The gear will break*.
*Disclaimer: Speaking mostly about new fiber gears. Very old ones, (like 50 years old), were made far better and do last a long time. Have had one in my touring since 1975.
What Jerry said: "making some thing work against most opposed & actual experience". I came across this before anyone posted but I thought I knew how it would go. Which it did (mostly negative). What really surprised me though was Dean Yoder's post about how long his was in service. Got to be something going on there. Perhaps no generator at least?
I think it's funny that folks use "quiet" timing gears instead of the stock steel ones. Come on, it's a Model T. What little noise the stock gear may produce will be drowned out by all the other racket the car makes.
My 24 touring has always had a generator or alternator on it.
I agree with Steve. In my 20+ years in the Model T hobby, I have never encountered a Model T that had any noticeable timing gear noise.
A Model A spark plug wrench fits the camshaft nut and being offset it works perfectly.
Just wondering why Dean.
I believe the stock camshaft gear is cast malleable iron. The original crank gear is machined steel. I suspect that a cast iron gear is more expensive to produce than simply machining one from bronze or aluminum.
If money is a concern, I'll bet you can find a good used original steel gear very cheaply.
Thanks Steve Jelf, tis kinda funny!
Dean, is that a horn on top of your tool box?
Reading through this post today for the first time. Until John said something, I kept thinking, forget the to.ing gear, FIX THAT REAR END! I have had a pinyon gear fail at a stop light and know that no matter how good the reflexes are, you are through the intersection before you realize what has happened.
So what will happen if the timing gear fails, the car will stop in its tracks. If the REAR end fails...
I have some extra bronze washers I got with some parts I bought years ago, send me an address by PM AND I will put them in the mail. I remember what it was like to be a poor college student. You never know, maybe I'll see him on tour some day, hope so.
Steve, Yes an air horn need a better compressor have removed it now.
Problem is the cost of the bronze washers can end up being only about 10% of the cost of replacing them. Once into the rear end several other items will usually be found to need replacement. Not intending to discredit the need for replacing the washers just pointing the total cost may be more than expected.
I sort of skated around it earlier, but definitely agree. Check out that rear end! I have decent extras of most rear end parts EXCEPT pinion bearing parts themselves. I would gladly donate any extra part I have to this cause.
I have never done it, because I was an early convert to this belief. But losing the rear end in any of a dozen ways at speed is NOT something you want to risk.
I love the fact that Dean Y has so many miles of driving with fiber gears in his T. I just generally disagree with taking the chance that a given gear is good enough to do that.
The original steel gears can and do get noisy. I have been kidded about them several times over the years. A couple of cars I had, I didn't have a really nice gear available, and really didn't have the money to spend on a new gear I wanted to trust. So, I HAVE used those marginally worn original gears. They do knock a bit. I get used to it, and hardly notice it when driving. Any new knocks? I NOTICE!
One of the speedsters I ran years ago on endurance runs I got kidded about the gear knock several times. One year, one of the tech inspectors hollered over to me as I drove up to be checked out, "Hey, drive that knock over here to be inspected!"
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Question: I see in the vendor catalogs that metal timing gears are offered in standard, .003 oversize and .005 oversize. Exactly what part of the gear is machined oversize? The only thing I can think of is the teeth are a little fatter to compensate for wear on the crank shaft gear and the generator gear to reduce noise.
Is that correct?
Henry, I believe that is correct.
Another question previously asked but not answered. Why brass and aluminum, but repros are not made out of steel? Because brass and aluminum are softer. they wear out tooth cutters slower and for that and other reasons are cheaper to make even though the material is more expensive. The wear characteristics of brass and aluminum are both more than adequate for a half-speed gear. Fiber and nylon are both doubtful.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
To answer Henry's question, the oversize value refers to the tooth thickness versus a "standard" gear. At least that's what I do on my gears. As to Wayne's question, we actually have to sharpen our hobs more when cutting the bronze gears because of a variety of technical issues primarily related to the physical properties of bronze. Just a general note- original Ford timing gears are not steel- they are a Ford version of ductile iron. Dan
Dan McE should know!
Today George Clipner and I went over to Derricks house to work on the car. That timing gear was our first concern, but when George fiddled with it a bit, the damn thing just popped off.
Examining the teeth there does seem to be some wear...the crowns of the teeth had a really fuzzy feel to them, so maybe switching out this gear for the steel on that Steve Jelf has donated, is probably a timely fix to a spawning problem in the making.
Id break that gear off and put a bronze or steel gear on. Between the cam and generator if it has one its to much load on a fiber gear and a nylon gear makes a fair door stop. Remember the old fords and Chevys.
MOPAR used them too. Nylon teeth over aluminum.
Dan is correct, as I said much earlier - the original Model T cam gears are cast iron. This would be the best gear for the job if you had one. Dan makes an awesome bronze gear, which I also recommend highly.
As a new T owner since August of this year (car in profile picture), I purchased a couple months later a restored chassis with a rebuilt engine. After reading earlier posts, I took off the front cover to find a fiber gear, which according to the bill for the engine work was new so to avoid any issues I have ordered an aluminum one from George Moir's. I plan to swap the touring body onto the 'new' chassis.
Ok update, Got the gear off. since Steve Jelf jumped into action by donating a gear (several other members want to donate but Steve was too fast)
My puller just wouldn't squeeze so I used two long screwdrivers and pried gently on both sides and rocked it off. had pics of cleaned gear but can't find them yet. Perhaps Steve will kindly post 'em. Gear was almost new looking.