Is there a substitute for the Ford wrench?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Is there a substitute for the Ford wrench?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 04:16 pm:


Ford made a wrench for the four flywheels bolts, designated as 3-Z-601, 3-Z-1179, or 5-Z-210 at different times. If you don't have that tool, as I don't, is there a common generic tool that will work? A straight wrench obviously won't do, and no socket I have will fit either. I'm thinking of bending an 11/16" open end wrench to reach it, but maybe somebody can suggest something better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 04:32 pm:

Just my opinion Steve but, split lock washers can, and do, break in two and fall out. Cotter pins are pretty much bullet proof.

As to your question, I think bending the wrench is your best bet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 04:36 pm:

I use a 3/8" socket set on them, no problems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 04:36 pm:

I find that if I turn the flywheel just right I can get a 11/16" socket and long bar on the bolts, no room for a ratchet, not mine anyway, I do have a 11/16" ratcheting open end that might work but I don't think you could get them tight enough.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 04:38 pm:

Steve, there is a Walden Worchester 3822 designed for the same purpose. Pictured are 2 of the Walden wrenches, both slightly different, and the Ford wrench.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Robinson Salty Bottom, AL on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 04:58 pm:

Blackhawk 4422 is the ticket.

Blackhawk 4422


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 05:03 pm:

I use my Craftsman 1/2 drive breaker bar and a socket. Fits fine, no special tool is required.

I have all those various Ford and KW and Walden and Stevens tools, but this is one place modern hand tools are better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Kramer on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 05:04 pm:

Steve, I'm pretty sure I used a regular 1/2 inch drive craftsman on mine. If it is still too thick, grind it thinner on the outside. You would only need to thin out part way around the socket. I hate to mention it but the safety wire on the magnet bolt in the right side of your picture isn't right. I always check and if the bolt could turn counter clockwise with out tightening the wire then I did it wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 05:12 pm:

Steve, all good advice above and I bought an original Ford wrench 5z210, but as with most open ended old wrenches on tight and stuck bolts, it usually wants to start rounding off. The Blackhawk wrench probably would work best, but they are a little hard to find.

For a right now solution that works great, and on another piece of advice from this board, I used my 3/8" drive, chrome 11/16" swivel (universal) socket with an extension on the end. It was thin enough where I was able to get two bolts at the same time if you get the flywheel in the right spot. And being it is a full round socket, it won't slip or spread and will get those bolts that are a little stuck. I file this under "it worked for me".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 05:22 pm:

Steve, I probably have ONE of the 'Z' tools; only One. Before I got it, My Dad and I took a box end wrench and put a couple of crazy bends in it. I'll look and see if I have it. Its yours if I do.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Thum on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 05:31 pm:

Steve, I feel your pain. On the later cars I have been able to use 1/2 inch drive sockets, but on early cars I have found that the sockets will not fit. I had to go on Ebay and buy the correct wrench. I may be wrong but I found it is the only way for me to get at the early car fly wheel bolts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 05:37 pm:

I'll try various sockets and see if I have one that will work. I may try grinding one a little thinner. I've done that before on other bolts in tight places, and it worked.

Jerry, I noticed that safety wire too. It's been in there about forty years, but the new one will be better.
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 05:46 pm:

Steve I would take Royce's advice and use a breakover bar and a socket. I also have an old Blackhawk box end wrench (not an original wrench that was designed for the crankshaft bolts) that has the correct off set that will work. Different brands of 11/16" box end wrenchs would probably work if you can find one.

Ford had specially designed wrenches for a specific purpose but most modern socket and wrench sets will work just fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 05:48 pm:

Steve, my weapon of choice is an 11/16" deep offset ring spanner. I had to crank the bend a bit more to get it to work. The old time tools with the crank in them to bring the handle back into line with the bolt heads work best. Anything else will tend to rock off the bolt heads.

The trouble is not all the rear main caps are made the same. The earlier ones have extra re-inforcing ribs cast into them, and this causes clearance problems for some tools. If I remember in time, I work the caps a little before they are re-metalled to give some clearance.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 05:56 pm:

Sorry Steve, I forgot that you guys call a ring spanner, a BOX end wrench. Does that terminology come from the old days of horse drawn vehicles when axle nuts were sometimes square? I have seen those tools with square ends for those nuts.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 06:44 pm:

Decades ago, my family had a '36 Dodge Bros. Truck that sat for years after my Dad put Detergent oil in it, and it developed a knock. I was probably 8 at the time, and when I got in High School, I decided to try to 'fix it up' and make it run (I did make it run, but didn't get any further than that, long sad story of how it left the family). Couldn't get the clutch to work properly, so finally pulled the tranny & clutch--and found out the knock was actually lock washers under the flywheel bolts that broke apart and left the Flywheel loose! Got rid of them and no more knock! It was just a co-incidence with the oil change!
So, YES split locks DO fail!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Young in Mays Landing, NJ on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 06:45 pm:

Steve, this is what I use. It's one of those yard sale/ estate sale specials mixed with about 5 minutes of torch time. The offset is 1-3/4". Simple as sweet potato pie.

1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 06:46 pm:

Steve,

I have recently picked up a couple of the old flywheel wrenches. You can have one for the cost of postage. Email me at mosterman@eastman.org


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Young in Mays Landing, NJ on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 06:46 pm:

1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 06:56 pm:

1/2 inch breaker bar and a socket. The crankshaft has to be turned so the bolt your loosening is at what would be the six o'clock position.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 08:47 pm:

I have always used a breaker bar and a socket. Sometimes with an extension. I even did one years ago in the car on a three-dip pan, for a friend that had not wired the bolts on his first T rebuild. He had been driving it about a year when in conversation it came up that "you didn't????" Two of the bolts were already backing out, but no damage done. Reaching in to tighten the bolts with my breaker bar, socket, and extension was the easy part. Wiring the bolts was loads of fun! Sometimes that stupid Sheldon stubborn streak comes in handy.
Drive carefully, and enjoy the holidays! W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 08:53 pm:

I have used a 3/8 with an extension and handle. However I have 4 dip pans on all my cars. I have one with a SKAT crankshaft and have not tried to do it with the engine in the car. The counterbalances might be a problem.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 09:15 pm:

I use an 11/16 short socket on a 3/8 drive breaker bar. A thin wall deep socket will also work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 09:18 pm:

I can't remember what I used. It was a common tool though because that's all I have.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 09:31 pm:

Steve,

On our 1918 I do not remember that being an issue. I think Royce is correct that a breaker bar and the correct socket will fit. If not the 1/2 drive then the 3/8 drive (with a pipe over the handle if you are a little light on the pulling side and need a little more to break it loose I still need that sometimes depending on how tight the last person put it together etc.)

Another method for taking it off might be to just remove the rear main cap (mark it so you put it back on the same way with the same number of shims etc. And when you put it back together -- check the clearance and adjust if needed). Be careful and don't gouge the crankshaft bearing surface and you should have plenty of room.

And if the webs in the cap were an issue, that prevented you from using the 1/2 inch drive and breaker bar, you can mark the cap where the web was too tall and interfered. Then grind it down smoothly in that area while you have it off and it will be easier next time. Don't get it hot and melt any babbit or distort the cap etc. I checked and Vic Zannis on page 31 of his "Rebuilding the Model T Engine" recommends grinding two half moon notches in the rear bearing flange "if" you have it off to make it easier to fit the sockets on the bolts when you rebuild the engine etc.

And please take some photos of the method you use and the others that would have worked also.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 09:34 pm:

Well, I looked through my sockets and found one with thin enough walls to fit. Problem solved. Thanks, all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Perry Goble on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 10:38 pm:

You can buy a shallow socket at O'Reilley that is just deep enough to cover the head of the bolt. It will give you a little more room to work .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Thursday, December 24, 2015 - 01:31 am:

I used a ford wrench I have to look tommerow but this it was 1701? it has a boxed end on each end and was offset each end it had enouf depth reach these bolts and cleared the ring gear
Swivel socket works or go harbor freight get a cheap wrench bend a
It to work


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Thursday, December 24, 2015 - 09:34 am:

One more thing about using sockets in tight places or when the bolt head cant be accessed easily.
Use a 6 point socket instead of a 12 point.
You'll have less of a chance of the socket slipping off and rounding the bolt head.

I learned this when working on equipment in confined spaces years ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Saturday, December 26, 2015 - 08:59 pm:

I was browsing Tbay tonight and found this current auction for an original wrench if anyone is interested.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-FORD-MODEL-T-WRENCH-3Z-647-HERBRAND-/20124074451 0?hash=item2edae2123e:g:VAIAAOSwj0NUi2BW&vxp=mtr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, December 26, 2015 - 09:01 pm:

Kim Dobbins has three of them for sale in the Classifieds:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/3487/597581.html?1451082420


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, December 26, 2015 - 11:39 pm:

The one on eBay is for connecting rods, not flywheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 10:42 am:

Always had trouble with socket wrench on the flywheel bolts. So made a 11/16" box wrench bent to shape to fit there. That works OK, but takes a hard pull.

So got this Ford tool for $5, 5Z210 Flywheel bolt wrench, it was spread out from hard use, so heated the fork and squeezed it back to fit the bolt head. Can't wait to use it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By P. Jamison- PA on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 11:00 am:

I see "Z Tools" mentioned a lot. Were these tools sold by Ford for use on the Model T? Does the Z stand for anything?

Phil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 11:13 am:

Yes, they were. I have no idea why the letter Z was chosen. A fully equipped Ford shop would have had all or most of them. There was a set designated as 3Z, and a later version that started with 5Z. The 5Z series had many of the same tools with different numbers. See pages 41 & 42 in the 8-5-28 parts book we all have. Bruce McCalley's Model T Encyclopedia on disk includes all the parts books, including lists of all the tools and pictures of many of them.

(Message edited by steve_jelf_parkerfield_ks on December 27, 2015)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, December 27, 2015 - 11:25 am:

The Z is just an identifier, used by the staff that created part numbers... Ford did supply the Z tools to dealers and others for repair use. Ford designed, but made by other tool companies marked with the Ford part number.


Model T era are mostly "3" Z marked tool, and the "5" Z tools, many the same as Model T for the later A and then V8 repairs, lots of them out there, and you can find the i.d. in old Parts and Price List.

This website has a 1932 price list.

http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/modelt5ztools.htm

Here is typical later Model T listing, the 1920 Price list shows these as "3-Z' tools, by 1927 the tools are '5-Z' moniker.



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