Self Locking Lifters?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2015: Self Locking Lifters?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Kelly Montana on Friday, December 25, 2015 - 12:51 am:

I'm going to buy a set of adjustable lifters. I'm interested in pros/cons of the self locking type against the lock nut type. PK


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Friday, December 25, 2015 - 01:53 am:

I have the style with the lock nut on the touring. The nuts are quite small and I must not have locked them enough, because most came loose. They opened up to around 0.2 inches, lots of noise and very little power. I thought the engine was shot until I looked at the tappets. On my next two engines for customers I used the self locking style with no reported problems.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Friday, December 25, 2015 - 05:10 am:

The locknuts on that type of lifter are small. It is easy to strip the threads trying to do them up tight enough to make them work. I only use the self locking type now.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Friday, December 25, 2015 - 12:01 pm:

On the new self locking type, do you still need to grind away the valve guide boss so everything fits?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, December 25, 2015 - 12:15 pm:

I like the original style lifters. Grind the valve stems to desired clearance. Then forget about them. Never a problem, less time spent too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David L Corman on Friday, December 25, 2015 - 12:22 pm:

Royce, I 'm with you, a lot less trouble in the long run. With the others, you will never run out of something to do.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Webb on Friday, December 25, 2015 - 12:24 pm:

Hand file the original style lifters


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By lorenzo leon on Friday, December 25, 2015 - 01:33 pm:

Warren ,are they not hardened ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Webb on Friday, December 25, 2015 - 02:28 pm:

They are but still can be filed flat on the top. My Roadster PU has run 60 years with this done,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Friday, December 25, 2015 - 02:48 pm:

Agree with Royce and Warren. I attach a grinding wheel to a bolt and nut and put it in in a lathe chuck. Hold the lifter perpendicular to the wheel so it grinds from the side. I hold the lifter manually in a jig and get a nice evenly ground surface by rotating the lifter while grinding. It sets off an open valve engine nicely.
Like the man says, do it once and forget it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By gene french on Friday, December 25, 2015 - 02:58 pm:

Keith:
I have NEVER cut the lifter guide boss down ...I adjust valves with the spring and keepers off ...turn cam to the point that lifter is on the cam heal ...you can then reach into the valve chamber and raise the lifter , make adjustment and check , and lock nut inplace ...this is done during final assembly ...I do use good quality open end wrenchs that are ground thin to properly fit the narrow wrench flat on the lifter body and thin jam nut ( requires 3 wrench's )...it would be easy to round the hex jam nut with a wrench that did not fit correctly or was spread ...I have not had trouble with the locking (jam) nut loosening ...HOWEVER , I do agree with Royce regarding the use of original type , non adjustable tappets ...I have original style tappets on a model A and model T of my own and do not ever expect problems with tappets...my 2 Dodge Brothers both have original adjustable tappets of adequate size and reasonable wrench clearances ...these never give problems , but were designed and engineered as original equipment ...always an optimist ...gene french


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, December 25, 2015 - 03:39 pm:

Royce & Richard - "Do it once and forget it". Well,.....not quite. I would have said, do it once, and forget it until the next valve job. Obviously, any valve grinding and/or dressing of the valve seats, whether by grinding with Sioux grinder, or cutting with carbide blades such as Neway, any of that will of course allow the valve to seat deeper and lessen the valve lash accordingly. I guess that's the advantage of the adjustable tappets.

One other thing, unless I missed it, it might be mentioned how important it is for the end of the valve stem to be ground absolutely flat and perfectly at right angle to the axis of the valve stem. Ever see the top of a tappet that is dished out somewhat concave instead of flat? That will always happen with normal wear, however, when someone in the past has done a quick and careless job of grinding the valve stems, that normal wear of the tops of the tappets is much more rapid and severe than if the valve stem had been carefully ground flat and level. Think of the difference between flat contact between end of valve stem and top of tappet, and "POINT CONTACT" due to other than perfectly flat & level grinding of valve stems.

Okay,.....end of "epistle",.....for what it's worth,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, December 25, 2015 - 03:42 pm:

I don't know if I'm fooling myself, but I've ground the valve stems in my Model A engines with a slight cup in the center (grind the cup first, and when you're close, finish with a flat grind) to act as an oil cushion for quieter valves. I think it works, but have no idea if it would work on the narrow ends the T valves have (in comparison with the mushroom ends of the T valves).
Any thoughts?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, December 25, 2015 - 04:52 pm:

Hmmm,....that sounds like a great idea David. If nothing else, that would provide a little place for a bit of oil to permanently reside, which absolutely has to be good. And finishing "with a flat grind" avoids that "point contact" I spoke of, which would certainly promote rapid wear of the tops of the tappets. I really think the tiny surface of the end of a Model T valve stem might be too small to treat like you do the mushroomed Model A valve stems, but I'm gonna' remember that little "tip" for future when the time comes for a valve job on my '29 Model A Briggs Town Sedan. Thanks,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, December 25, 2015 - 05:02 pm:

David - You've got me thinking about your idea; after careful grinding of the end of the Model T valve stem to ensure it's flat and at perfect right angle to the stem axis, a guy could finish up by grinding a very tiny "dimple" with a Dremel, maybe about the size of the head of a pin, in the center of the end of the valve stem. Just enough to hold a speck of oil. Might or might not be of any benefit, but then, it certainly couldn't hurt, right? Once the top of the tappet wears to a very minute concave surface, a bit oil would tend to stay there anyway, but maybe the "dimple" thing to hold that speck of oil would lengthen the time that the top of the tappet would remain perfectly flat, ....(???) One thing about it David, we're both old enough that probably none of this matters to us anyway, right?.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, December 25, 2015 - 06:08 pm:

Harold,
You WOULD bring up the AGE thing, wouldn't you!!
:-)
Hmm, some projects I'm doing now, I probably won't have to do again in this life, eh?? That could be good & bad. . . .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Friday, December 25, 2015 - 08:37 pm:

Lifters, like valves have to be Butt when new, as neither has a true flat surface from the factory that is 90 degree to the body of lifter, or valve.

Bob's is the only, and the best adjustable lifter made for the Model T's.

You do not need any 3 wrenches to adjust a lifter with a lock nut. All you need is two 3/8's.

If you can file a lifter Body, a Nut, or a Bolt, your lifters are not hard enough.

Always take the nuts, and the bolts out of the new lifters, and get all the burs off, and iron filings out of the lifter body, so the bolts turn with out binding.

Herm.

Adjustable lifers Broke.




Butting Lifters, What they Look Like.





The spring will hold the valve out of the way for adjusting the lifter, and all you have to do is push it down for checking the gap.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Saturday, December 26, 2015 - 07:33 pm:

Pat,

No time to read all that's been written above.

So, as to the con's: They WILL lose their "self locking" capability and give you problems.

Pro's: Not aware of any.

Use the style with the lock nut. A little more tedious to adjust but not as bad as everyone lets on. There is NO need to cut down the lifter bosses. It's abusive and totally unnecessary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Saturday, December 26, 2015 - 07:58 pm:

Just put in a set of the 3 wrench style wasn't hard and didn't cut the guide down either.
Way to do it is adjust the gap turn the engine so there spring tension on the lifter and carefully tighten the nut.
This was also made easier by no pistons yet and block on the table but if I didn't already have the 3 wrench style I would have gone with self locking ones


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 01:47 am:

One thingI put in chevy 350 valves witch require adjustable lifters


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 09:30 am:

I've used 350 Chevy valves with standard Ford non adjustable lifters. No issues.

I prefer to buy Fordson valves and cut them to length then drill for the standard Ford pins. They come in Stainless with 11/32" stems, so I don't have to install valve guides. The Fordson valve head diameter is 1.66" so you don't have to install new valve seats either. Overall cheaper and less labor with better results.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 01:13 pm:

Cheaper? I see the Fordson House sells the valves for $16.50 apiece. Don't believe I paid that much for stainless T valves the vendors supply.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 01:17 pm:

Richard,

Right, but you bought valve guides and valve seats and valve retainers and valve locks and paid for them to be installed right?

Buying the Fordson valves and installing them with the stock Model T retainers saves a lot of money and labor too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 02:48 pm:

Actually the stainless valves I purchase from the parts suppliers can be had in standard or one of two oversize stems. Since they are made for a Model T, they have the predrilled hole for the retainer pin and use the stock cup to hold the valve spring. Usually its just a matter of reaming the guides to the next oversize and cutting or grinding the existing seats. Of course since we prefer solid lifters, the ends of the valve stems need to be ground to fit. And if the seats have been ground too far into the block, you need to install new seats. But most of the time, I get by with simply cutting the existing seats and reaming the stems oversize.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 07:53 pm:

Richard - I think new stainless valves from our major "T" parts vendors, with oversize stems if necessary, as you've suggested is the best plan, if, as you say,....if the valve seats have not been ground too far into the block. However, if the valve seats have been ground into the block too far for the standard size Model "T" valves, then re-read Royce's suggestion which I consider to be much, MUCH more sensible than having new valve seats installed,....."The Fordson valve head diameter is 1.66" so you don't have to install new valve seats, which as Royce further stated, "saves a lot of money and labor". And I might add, you (or some future owner, like maybe a son or grandson) will still have the option of installing new valve seats. FWIW,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 08:23 pm:

I've got about 7,000 miles on a set of the lock-nut lifters from Langs (the kind that require 3 wrenches) and I've never had any problems from them. They worked fine for me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 09:24 pm:

Harold - I agree that valves with a wider head will work in some cases. It really depends on the condition and geometry of the existing seat. I haven't found them to be the cure all that some suggest.


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