Is it true or forgery which it is possible to adapt a cylinder head collapsed of Chevrolet 1928 on an engine of Ford T?

Est-il vrais ou faux qu’il est possible d’adapter une culasse culbuté de Chevrolet 1928 sur un moteur de Ford T ?

A bientôt

Olivier (france)

it is true...28 Chevy head can be made to work. There are several on the forum who have done it and I'm sure they will chime in. I don't touch anything wearing a Bowtie so I can't tell you the particulars, but they can.
Ray

It is indeed true. "Poorman's Rajo" it is sometimes called. It requires a plate added between the T block and the Chevrolet head.

Tim Foye can tell you all about it though he probably doesn't speak a lick of French.:-)

Tim's website is www.Gen3AntiqueAuto.com where you can find more details.

Seth

Ray,

As much as you hate Chevrolets, you should always fit in well with the Ford crowd. T-buckets might even be OK if they were powered by 351 Clevelands or even T-type Regal V-6s instead of that dreaded SBC, right?

Seth

Ok thank you for your information.

Olivier

Ahhh Seth...you are so right! Nothing sweeter than Tommy Ivo's Nailhead-powered T! That was a hot rod back when hot rods weren't just a cookie-cutter copy of someone else's creation. Back when the aftermarket community supplied parts for ALL the popular engines, before the SBC became so cheap and plentiful. But, as I get older and want to go slower, a stock T suits me fine Nowadays I much prefer hearing "I can't believe its that old and still drivable" rather than "I didn't know Buick made anything that fast!"

hehe
Ray

Slowing down at a mighty young age there, buddy.

Seth :-)

just takin a lesson from you old guys

There you go. A wise man always learns from the elders - and I'm getting downright ancient in a hurry. My problem is that I'm a better teacher when I say "Don't go there because I have and it's nine miles of bad road!".

S:-)

Tim,

I think you left the table lamp sitting on your engine....Just kidding. Nice looking engine.

Denny

I've moved on to a heat tube, intake kept frosting up. The dryer hose is not as pretty but it works better than the air cleaner.

Tim,

I like the link belt driving the water pump - and the close to useless stock fan replaced with that big electric one.....

But what's up with all that PVC insulated wire and the tiestraps? Come on man - do old where you can.:-)

Ray,

A 75 year old friend of mine from California called today. His model A street rod is powered by (get ready for this) a 4.3L V-6 like the one in my truck!

Say what?

A California thing?

A retired airline flight engineer thing?

Though I didn't tell him so, even I find that downright repulsive.

Seth :-)

The waterpump was a last minute change to make this engine work. We have no idea why, but the water didn't move at all without it. Ice cold lower hose and boiling in the upper hose. I know of a few others that don't run a pump with this setup (met up with one this morning). I even enlarged the holes. It was getting hot enough to fire off the gasoline before the spark.

My original plan was to run no belt. The link belt was here on the shelf, and I can set the length to whatever I want. There is no third pulley (for now), and no way to tighten it so I hope it doesn't stretch. The wiring is modern, easy to buy, cheap, and it is less likely to burst into flame like the set I took out did. What you don't see is a fusebox inside under the cowl and every connection is soldered. The two relays up high are for high and low headlights, the lower one is for the fan, which is set at 180°.

It looks reliable, and fast also. Sorry to needle you. You've done a nice job.

Seth

Tim,

I like it! More important....How does it compare performance wise to a Z head or other higher compression T flat heads? I have a couple of 27/28 chev. engines and have also thought about using one of the heads on my current engine project. The valves are much smaller than the RAJO head but smaller valves have some advantages in mid-range (RPM) compared to larger valves.
I have modified and installed a 27/28 chev. crank shaft in my project engine but have not yet decided on which head to use.
Have also seen and rode in a 12 T with a 28 chev. block and head mounted on a T four dip pan/transmisson. It seemed very smooth and performed much better than a stock T. There is very little modification required to fit the T pan on a chev. block. If you sit the chev. block on a T pan you may be surprised on how well things line up. The front pan nose will need some modifications if you decide on using the chev. pulley. The back of the block must be machined to fit the T hogs head and crank shaft flange must be adapted to accept the T flywheel.
The rear of the chev. block has threaded holes and with a simple adapter can be bolted to the 26/27 T hogs head mounting ears. The owner of this engine used ford 292 pistons which pushed the compression up in the chev. engine compared to stock pistons.
I love our 13 touring but can not help but be impressed on how advanced the chev. engine was compared to my T engine. Even the 16 engine had oil pressure to the mains!
The Che-T-Engine is on display in a private museum located in San Diego. I was told that the "Seth's".....SMILE! gave the owner such a bad time for what he had done that he quickly put the original engine back in his T. This all happened over 25 years ago. Just sharing.....Smile! Les Von Nordheim

I think it would be very interesting to see a side by side performance comparison between the Z head and the Jern thunderbolt ( the chevy head conversion). The Z head costs around $360 and the chevy conversion is about $1,000. Thanks
Gary

Gary,
I agree.....a performance comparison would be great! Depending on the comparison/results.....may answer the question for me of going forward with a chevy head conversion or making some chevy owner a great find at the next swap meet. Right now, I am on the fence. Les

Gee, Seth...they're even using your name now as a label!

They can have their V6-powered street rods. If it ain't old-school with a high-nickel iron V8 (either flathead or OHV), many carbs, and three pedals, I don't even want to look at it

Real cars have three pedals! hehe

Can't beat those linkbelts, can ya Tim?

Ray,
The Che-T-Engine did have three pedals and a T pan. Looking under the T and at the floor boards everything appeared stock T. With the hood up, It was interesting seeing the looks on folks faces and hearing the comments as they tried to figure just what they were looking at. The engine ran a V belt and stock water pump. It was a Hoot!

The CheeT engine sounds like a good deal to me. You could get just about any CR you want by using popup pistons.

I wonder if a Dodge Bros. four would fit as well? You can bet that one is near bulletproof.

rdr

Side by side comparison between a Z head and the overhead valve setup? Your kidding right? A Z head T with a Holley NH on it will allow about 29 cfm of air through the engine. My engine has a Holley 94-8BA carburetor on it that flows 162 cfm.


The sayings are true:

You get what you pay for.

Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?

Ha ha, this thing is so fast the zero to sixty time is a negative number.

Anyone that didn't see the video of it running, it's here: http://modeltengine.com/news.htm

I'll post more info after I put more miles on it. I do know of two other cars in my area with this setup. One is a 20's roadster reported to be "scary fast" and the other is a mercury bodied speedster that is reported to be "faster than mine" - this statement was from a guy with a hopped up Model A speedster that will keep with traffic on the interstate. The jury is still out on my car, I don't have that many miles on it yet. It does make this heavy sedan pretty peppy, but until the motor is broken in I'm taking it easy.

Les, I wasn't referring to the T you were talking about...sorry about not being clear. Thats an old saying amongst traditional hot rodders. a real hot rod has 3 pedals, meaning in that context that if it has an automatic transmission it ain't genuine.

I wasn't trying to demean any modified T that is done in the old-school manner! They are real hot rods too!

Ray

Ray,
No problem....after I finish my existing T engine project, I may build a Chee-T-Engine. I think it could be a fun project and not that expensive. Doing the machine work to modify the chev. block to fit the T hogs head is the tough part. Having access to a large CNC mill would make the job easy. Using a 27/28 chev. engine block and over head, you get most of the options that many of us work hard incorporating in a stronge T. The only bad thing is modifying a T four dip pan....and that still could be changed back to stock. The chev. guy's may not agree! With the hood down & from the out side, both top and bottom everything still looks stock! It would also be fun to add a special name to the valve cover to further confuse our T buddies who are not familar with the chev. block or head. SMILE!...."trouble"

Now that everyone has heard from Tim, where are the Z head experts?
Gary

What would you like to know about them? They are my first choice. They weigh 8 pounds, the stock T high head weighs 38 pounds. They have a "V" in each combustion chamber (Ricardo style?). The only competition to the Z head right now is the Reeder head. Same thing only without the "V"'s. The Z head produces peak power at a slightly higher rpm than the Reeder head. I also believe that those V groove's in the combustion chambers make a big difference.

I thought this was a poor mans rajo thread? Seems like someone is still trying to compare the two. Trying to compare the Z head to the chevy head setup is like comparing a moped to a dirt bike. Two different things entirely.

What's the CR of the Chev head setup?

rdr

You choose the compression ratio you want, he'll make whatever you want (within reason). I chose 6:1, which is what I feel is the highest compression those babbitt bearings can stand. I tried 7:1 in another engine (Lizard head) and they pounded out. The adapter plate is the actual combustion chamber (photos on my website). The Chevy head is flat, and the T pistons come up out of the bore a little....

What would give the OHV more power for same CR as a Z head?

rdr

Its all about CFM's, swirling fuel/air mixture, and unobstructed airflow, Ralph. Although I don't know squat about the Chevy head on a Ford, I know from years of fooling with vintage V8s that opening up the ports and polishing them, bigger valves, and many carburetors allow more air in which equals more HP. The first-gen V8s from GM (Buick, Caddy, Olds) were powerhouses for their time, but severely restricted in the air flow department. L-heads (valve-in-block) cannot deliver the airflow that an overhead can because of the distance the air must travel and the complicity of its path, where an overhead-valve arrangement allows a shorter and straigher path to the chamber. The air/fuel mixture entering above the piston into a round combustion chamber also allows for the swirl effect, which leads to better combustion. The L-head engines do not burn the charge fully and effectively because of the "not round" chamber. The fuel cannot swirl in the chamber and the space over the valves leaves a void where stagnant mixture doesn't burn before the piston has been forced down and the exhaust valve opens.

Engine Theory 101

Chevy's from earlier in the 20's were at approximately 20 hp like the T, (up to 26 hp in '25) but in '28 they really had to do something to keep up with the new model A..
From http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1928-chevrolet-national-series-ab.htm
"Meanwhile, the old reliable 171-cubic-inch four-cylinder engine gained higher compression, larger valves, aluminum pistons, and a revised carburetor for a final breath of life and a rating of 35 horsepower at 2,200 rpm. Because of increased weight, performance failed to improve."

So a 1928 Chevy head has much better potential to breath than a flathead T engine with standard manifolds.

The Chevy only had 4.2 to 1 compression if my info is right. Displacement was 170 c.i. (stock T is 176) One of the things that we do now is put 280 lift cams in. With the 28 head, the overall lift is 0.420 (1.5:1 rocker arm * 280). Still less than the stock 28 chevy - 0.300 cam so 0.450 at the valves. I'm sure the compression more than makes up for it.

Tim,
what push rods and lifters do you use on the chevy conversion?
Thanks
Gary

The ones that come in the kit.

Tim, lets say that a fella back in 1930 wanted to do the conversion. There were no kits...what push rods and lifters did he use?

Depends on how thick the adapter plate is.
There was some discussion on this in the 2005 forum. I don't know what to tell you. I use the kit. I don't usually re-engineer something that works. It's much easier to let someone smarter than I am develop and test things. I just picked up the phone and said "send me everything I need". Let me clarify this statement too - the push rods I got were powder coated after sizing and the adapter plate bolts that came in the box were too long. I had to deal with those and some other minor issues, but overall it's a good kit. As I slammed two mortal enemies (Ford and Chevy) together, there were bound to be issues. I'm not complaining.

My green engine's kit came with two piece push rods. One through the valve guides in the block, and the second connects to the first just under where the flathead valves would be -in the unused ports (ball and socket). This is to deal with an angle, the Chevy rocker arms are not directly over the Ford valve guides.

One thing I did learn - run it on a stand first, no water, let it get hot. Then pull the head off and re-torque the plate. It's a be-atch to do this in the car later. Re-torquing the Chevy head later is easy, but the plate bolts are buried under the head when it's assembled. Neal needs to come up with a no-re-torque head gasket for the adapter plate to block connection.

If anyone wants one of these engines, I have another kit available. Includes a rebuilt head, manifolds, plate, everything you need. All I ask is that I do the whole engine - so we can make it run right before it leaves here. If you want just the kit so you can do it yourself, call Neal directly.

Does anyone else know what components are used in the valve train? I have a reasonably good complete 28 chevy head and an interest in this conversion, but not the thousand dollars to buy the complete kit right now. I plan to construct it in segments and would appreciate any suggestions. Thank you
Gary

"Does anyone else know what components are used in the valve train? I have a reasonably good complete 28 chevy head and an interest in this conversion, but not the thousand dollars to buy the complete kit right now. I plan to construct it in segments and would appreciate any suggestions. Thank you
Gary"

Talk to Tim Foye.
http://www.gen3antiqueauto.com/model_t_parts.htm
"The head in the photos is a 1928 Chevy, chosen for it's 1.5:1 rocker arm ratio. This ratio gives the stock T cam .375" lift at the valve. A new 280 cam will net you .420" lift. With the right combination of parts you can get up into the 100 HP range to push your T down the road. The "6" written on the side of the adapter plate refers to the compression ratio."

DJH

If you use the whole Chevy engine, you have a much better product, and probably lower cost.

You could use either the planetary, or the Chevy 3-speed.

My T engines have Chevy cranks and rods.

rdr

If you use a whole Chevy engine, you might have trouble attending Model T club events.

Uh, the long-time editor of the Orange County Model T Club drives a '27 Chevy - the whole car.

rdr

After the installation of the Jern adapter plate, I heated the plate/block up with a propane weed burner up to 200 deg. using a infra-red therometer, and then retorqued. We'll see how it works......Byron

I did that too. They (bolts) were loose later after a couple miles when I pulled the head off to check. I got another 1/4 to half turn on each before getting back up to 50 foot pounds.