Brake drum question - see picture

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2008: Brake drum question - see picture
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Walton on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 04:01 pm:

While under my T I noticed I can see into my passenger drum with a flashlight. The driver side is closed up pretty well.

I thought maybe the axle nut would just need tightening. Wheel seems like it is on securely and the cotter pins are still in place. I bought this from a well versed T guy a few years ago. Thought I should get some opinions here before I start to take anything apart.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Walton on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 04:02 pm:

Second picture was supposed to be the driver side


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 06:08 pm:

If that's a brake lining we're looking at inside that drum, I think it might be safe to conclude you better be looking for some drums!
Take the good looking side apart too it's probably paper thin as well.
This is something you dont want to figure out on the road!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 06:16 pm:

Dennis,

The drums are stamped steel, not cast iron. Nothing wrong with the drums that I can tell from the pictures. The "thinness" of the stamped steel drums is one of the reasons that the emergency brakes are just that - for emergencies and for parking.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Walton on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 06:39 pm:

So - I guess my initial question is - How do I close the gap between the drum & axle housing. It would seem I need to tighten the axle nut, but it seems pretty tight at this point. The brakes appear to be a mesh, asbestos or some other organic material.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 06:49 pm:

Matt,

First question that needs to be answered is, "Have you jacked up that side of the car and checked for axial play (in-and-out) of that wheel?"

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 06:55 pm:

The babbitt washer that controls the thrust on the ring gear side of the differential is almost surely badly worn or missing. A caution is that you may lose your brakes if it reaches the point that the pinion will slip past the teeth on the ring gear. On the other hand, it could be that everything is tight and one side got an aftermarket axle that was a little longer, etc. If it were me, I'd be checking the movement in and out and probably would pull the rear end and check it out. It's not a big job to do. Could mean the different between safe and sorry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Walton on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 07:03 pm:

Another view


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 07:08 pm:

Matt,

Stan is absolutely right and has told you the rest of the story. Please do not drive your car any more until you get this problem resolved.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Walton on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 07:13 pm:

Jacked it up - No in/out play


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Walton on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 07:19 pm:

If it were the Babbit Washer - would there definitely be in/out play?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 07:25 pm:

My mistake, I thought we were talking about that place where the paint is peeling off and we were looking through the drum.
(hey, I'm old).
Right, jack up that right wheel, in fact jack up both wheels, get somebody on the left side as well and push those wheels back and forth, you want to know how much play you have in the shims that determine ring & pinion play.
If everything is reasonably tight, pull that right wheel and hub, you might find an axle shim in there. If you do, take it out and re-install the hub, if the hub is now smashed against the backing plate, you might have to go looking for a good hub.
That sound about right Seth?, you have a LOT more experience with this kind of stuff than I have.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 07:35 pm:

Dennis,

No, I don't but Stan certainly does, and it sounds like you do too - or at least you remember what you read here like I do. A former owner may have shimmed that hub like you say to stop an annoying chatter between the drum and the shoes like you are telling Matt. In my opinion, if that's the case, he got a bit carried away with it.

Seth :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Pawelek on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 07:44 pm:

Matt, Did you jack up both rear sides at the same time? You won't get a good feel for any "in and out" play with one wheel on the ground. It is even more accurate if both rear wheel hubs are off and just the bare axles are sticking out....Michael Pawelek


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Walton on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 07:58 pm:

Both axles off the ground. No noticable in/out.
Removed Castle nuts. Do I need a Wheel-Puller to further?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 08:01 pm:

Matt, My '12 Torpedo was even worse than yours and no end to end play and after taking apart the rear end I found out one axel was longer than the other. I simply cut a new groove in the axel for the keeper cut off a full 1/4" and now both are the same. May have resulted in a repair of the axel tube on one side having been shortened.
Good Luck and check out all the obivious


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David_Cockey on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 09:04 pm:

If the hub is properly tight you hub puller. If it comes off without a hub puller then it's not tight enough.

Another possibility. The key is keeping the axle from seating properly, either because one of both of the keyways in the axle and hub are not deep enough, or because the key slid when the wheel was installed. After you get a hub puller and pull the hub, see if the wheel goes on further without a key installed. Just remember to install a key before driving. I use Locktite to hold the key in position on the axle before installing the wheel. Just allow enough time for the Locktite to set and wipe off any excess.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Sunday, July 13, 2008 - 10:12 pm:

I don't see a problem. You are concerned that there is daylight between the edge of the brake drum and the backing plate. Many T REs have this condition after restoration. My guess is its due to longer replacement axels. Since you have no axel play which would indicate a thrust washer problem, there is really nothing to be concerned about . Check out the photos. One is the Ruckstell side of a RE I rebuilt 5 years ago with about 3000 miles on it. The second is the Ford side of another RE I rebuilt this winter. Both REs were completely gone through and set up right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H on Monday, July 14, 2008 - 04:02 am:

I have similar, though not as extreme. It's a result of the repro axle being 1/4" longer than standard. The guy who made the axle informed me he did this deliberately, I think the reason was that in case the taper of the drum had to be machined it wouldn't be too close to the brake shoe. Still, you'd want to check that there's no shim or defective babbit washer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph Wayne Rudzik on Monday, July 14, 2008 - 11:05 am:

Matt,
It could be the brake linings not letting the drum move all the way in or the shoes could be a little thicker than originals. The axle cap could be the wrong year and the wheel not closing in.
Put a little grease on the axle shaft or in the taper of the rear hub and try nutting the wheel closer, you might have to use a washer to shim the nut for more tightness (it's in the book).
My thought is the brake lining is new and too thick as I had this sam problem with lined shoes on my T.
Hope this helps ya.

Joe R.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By scott rosenthal on Monday, July 14, 2008 - 12:11 pm:

Sounds like the fit of the taper hub bore with the axle are correct and tight. If this is the case, and the axle turns freely, then there is no possibility that an obstruction is preventing the wheel from fully engaging the axle. The 1/4" longer shaft possibility sounds more plausible. Shouldn't you be able to take a measure from the backing plate out to the outermost tapered axle edge, to compare this with another rearend?
Regards,
Scott Rosenthal


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David_Cockey on Monday, July 14, 2008 - 09:12 pm:

Do not put grease on the taper!!! The hub to axle fit depends on friction to hold properly. A greased taper will result in the hub working back and forth which will enlarge the keyways.

As Scott said if the brake shoes or "axle cap" where keeping the hub from tightening properly on the axle then the hub would rub when the wheel turned and the hub would be loose on the axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth H. Todd on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 10:21 am:

Howcum those linings don't appear to have any grease or oil on them?
Don't you drive that car?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, July 15, 2008 - 11:25 am:

Matt,

Please forgive my stupid question but, when you were checking for in & out play, did you release the parking brake?

I would remove the worst looking of the two wheels and simply check things over for my own satisfaction. As others have stated, sometimes they just go together that way.

Let us know what you find.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Powers on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 08:00 pm:

I installed new rear lined brake shoes on my 1924 T. The wheel will barely spin now. Will this self adjust with movement or will it wear down quickly? I also thought of sanding down the shoes a little. Any ideas?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chuck Martin on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 09:58 pm:

If it is that tight, it will get hot and could cause problems.
You can use a sander to fit the shoes. Just don't breath the dust.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, January 24, 2009 - 10:21 pm:

There is a longer axle made to compensate for the two brake drums when you have Rocky Mountain brakes. If someone replaced the axle shaft with one of those longer shafts but didn't use Rocky Mountain brakes, that could be the cause of the problem. But before you assume that, be sure to check for endplay and also shims. You might find nothing wrong but an axle that is too long. That won't cause any problem other than possibly some dirt getting into the brakes.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, January 25, 2009 - 01:55 am:

Matt:

I hope I don't offend you by asking this question a bit too late but I hope you do know that you should never jack up the T rear end by putting floor jack under center section. That can stretch the bolts and distort the housing and a new leak is the least of the issues it causes. If you indeed have been doing that - you might not be able to get any side to side movement due to the strain placed on the center section basically binding things up. It is OK to jack up the front axle from the axle center but not OK at the rear end. Jack up each side separately and put a jack stand under it to get both wheels off the floor and then check it out. In truth I have seen many T's with a bit of daylight between the backing plate and the drum edge and so long as everything else is OK, it isn't a big deal. If you want to find out why it is that way then of course you have to pull off at least one wheel. If there is a hub shim in there, those pose the problem of getting just the right thickness one to make the hub fit perfectly and that can be tough to do. One might be too thin and another too thick. I always like to know for sure if the rear end has bronze thrust washers or babbit so if you do not know for sure - might as well find out for sure. If one or both are babbit then I certainly would recommend you just keep going a bit further on the tear down and get those out of there since they are sure to eventually crumble when you take a corner and when they go - they tend to go all at once - unfun project at that point.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren F Rollins on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 01:57 pm:

"Never jack up a T rear end by putting a floor jack under the center section." John, I can understand if it was a very early clamshell which was a weak point anyway but the later rear end shouldn't make any difference. The rear end doesn't weigh that much. More strain would be put on it by driving it down an old rutted gravel road,it would seem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 02:16 pm:

Gotta go with Warren here. I have always jacked up rear axles in the center, (when I want to lift both wheels that is), and have never had a problem. I understand your point John and how the forces differ when center jacking but the T rear end, (the later ones at least), are just not that fragile.

Larry,

The new cast iron lined drums are not all that they should be. They usually require some fitting. Some are too wide, others have the cast ends protruding above the lined surface. The current supplier seems to be doing a sloppy job in other words.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 02:53 pm:

I think the problem of bending the rear end housing is this. The springs push down on the ends and the jack pushes up in the middle. This makes a leverage problem. With the wheels on the ground, the upward pressure is directly on the springs and by jacking at the ends it would more approximate the normal pressures. I did get one used one that was bent upward in the middle, and I don't know if it was from jacking or other cause., A bent housing can throw all the internal parts out of alignment. It only takes a few minutes to move the jack from one side to the other and that is the way I do it. One should use jack stands anyway, it is very easy to fall off a jack or have a hydrolic jack fail and the jack stands are a good safety measure. I also agree that the later housings are stronger than the clamshells.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Denis Chicoine, MD on Tuesday, January 27, 2009 - 07:35 pm:

I'll re-state a suggestion here following John's comment about the babbit thrust washers. If you replace the babbit thrust washers in a rear end, put a metal tag on one of the bolts signifying that it was done. This might save some future person from tearing it down to check this.


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