? Water Pump rebuild ?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2008: ? Water Pump rebuild ?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Collins on Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 07:46 pm:

Is there a way to rebuild the T water pump?
Can I buy parts to do this?

I know the T is a boil through system but I noticed that just after a 1 mile drive. I could hear the water boiling inside the radiator. The last time I had the water pump off (pulled it to clean the whole cooling system out) I noticed that one of the blades was shorter than the other. Like it was missing a piece. I'm pretty sure it was missing before my grandpa put the pump on years ago.

I can buy a new pump but the one I have is fine on the outside. Seems like a waste of 200 bucks to get a new one. You think someone would make new blades to just replace? If not maybe It would be a good time to learn how to cast my own...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 07:58 pm:

Better to just take it off and use it as a part hanging on the garage wall to remember your grandfather by. Your Model T doesn't need a water pump. They are just a source of trouble. It would be more reliable and cooler running without that part on the engine.

Royce


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Collins on Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 08:35 pm:

I'm going to put it in parades so I'd like to keep the water pump on it. I'm almost thinking of a electric pump. I've already converted to 12 volts, so would not be much work. Just fabricate a mount

I'd rather have it worry free than original for right now. I can always take it back.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pete on Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 09:05 pm:

Until somebody does some proper research on an engine with and without a waterpump, during the exact same driving conditions, and posts their data/results, this silly argument about whether a waterpump helps or not will continue...Somebody please bury this argument with some reliable research!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 09:56 pm:

So far as the blades are concerned, check out eBay for the style you have and purchase one for parts. Rebuilds are pretty straight forward, a new stainless steel rod, new bushings line reamed and you're ready to go.
Its been my experience that some styles of water pumps work and some don't. Most don't. With a Climax water pump I was able to use marginal original radiators on a 26 and 16. Without the pump, the engines would overheat. Same experience with a 12 chassis I rebuilt. I really didn't want to use the pump trying to keep everything stock, but the car overheated even with a new radiator. Once again the Climax solved the problem. Can't really say why it worked. I usually am no fan of period aftermarket items. Three exceptions that come to mind are a Ricardo head, a Ruckstell rear end and a Climax water pump.
I have no argument with those saying a good radiator is the key to a cool running engine, nor with those that have never had good luck with a water pump. I speak only from my own experience.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 11:03 pm:

Pete
Proper research?
I did exact driving condition analysis with a newly rebuilt engine with a new flat tube radiator and a water pump. The water pump/thermostat combination was a clear loser.
Yes, the engine warmed up much faster with the waterpump, but when it was warm it clearly performed within thermosyphon expectations under all driving conditions.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Reid on Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 11:45 pm:

Jeff

Is the problem with your water pump or something else? Are you advancing the spark advance enough when driving? Is your overheating occuring driving at higher speeds or low speed?

It would probably by an inexpensive test to try it without the waterpump. Probably cheaper than a rebuild and you can still drive when the rebuild is done if it doesn't perform well.

Maybe some of the other people can share their experience driving in parades without a warerpump. I have driven in several parades without a pump. I did have a problem once but that was because the fan belt slipped off the bottom pulley. Other than that it always worked well

Andy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 11:54 pm:

I settled the water pump issue in regards to my rigs this way.Henrys company built 14,999,997 T's than I have in my life.He built most without water pumps.Who am I to redesign the system? :>)

I know,I didnt follow this method thru out the process. he went 6,I went 12.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Collins on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 04:06 pm:

Here are pictures of my water
Is it a decent pump?
pump.WP 1
WP 2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Collins on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 04:18 pm:

Andy you could be right, I'm kind of a lead foot, well lead hand for the T. May just not be driving the car correctly
I recently changed to a distributor and 12 volt so I'm burning alot hotter spark. But even before I changed the ignition the t would get really hot. I pulled the head and pump and cleaned them out. Had just a small amount of scale in them. I also blew air through the block to make sure there wasn't any obstructions. It helped. I'm just wondering if the pump isn't really pumping much with just one impeller at full length. I'm willing to try with out it. Will try next weekend and let everyone know.

I am getting better and better with the T and what it likes and dislikes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By warrenrollins on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 05:17 pm:

The solution to your problem is not a $200 water pump. You need a modern core flat tube radiator.
Don't think so much of the initial cost but of the years of cool running Ford enjoyment. I have a good looking round tube radiator but the problem is that it does not cool, I replaced it with one that does .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 06:08 pm:

Jeff
I agree with Warren Rollins. Original round tube radiators long ago ceased being effective heat exchangers. What happens is the tubes and fins become discontinuous as a result of the radiator being bounced around for 80 odd years and it simply won't cool the water flowing in the tubes. You can push all the water you like with a water pump, but not much happens in the way of cooling the water. If you get a new flat tube radiator you can dispense with the water pump and all attendant problems entirely.
I believe Don Lang said it best. "You can struggle with an original radiator and it will only frustrate you spoiling the fun with your Model T. If you spend the money for a new radiator and use it for ten years of enjoyable trouble free driving it will cost you about $50 per year".
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard G.Goelz Knoxville,Tn on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 06:22 pm:

Now theres a first,Ron agreeing with Warren!!!
Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 06:34 pm:

Richard
I really like Warren, he has deceptively disarming laugh, but when he slithers up to me at Chickasha with a box of really ratty old ignition coils "just wanting to drop them off" for ME to cart home (when he lives in the next state) and fix them for him I now greet him with "the people you meet when you don't have a gun"
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Hansen on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 07:58 pm:

Lost my first Berg type pump in twenty plus years. on the road a couple weeks ago. Split pin came out of the impeller, apparently it thermo siphon for while with a thermostat until the pin jammed the impeller against the housing, causing the pulley to spin on shaft with loud noise.

Easy fix, didn’t need any bushing as they were great after all these miles, only reattached the impeller. I would check with Snyder’s, he makes the Berg pump; he may be able to sell only an impeller. If you need bushings you will have to line bore them if you are equipped to do so.

Had to add packing a couple times through the years,simply kept it lubricated. Got what I consider great service from the pump. We have them on seven other T's. All but one possibly two with thermostats


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 08:48 pm:

For some 10X50= $500.00 but far short of the new rad and a water pump is a peroid assesory while a flat tube?? Makes me wonder how many of those brand new Model T's came to the new owners homes from the Ford Dealer new pumps installed?? It also makes me wonder if a water pump would void the Ford waranty?? Great would be if a maker of water pumps or rebuilder of engines would put a Model T on a chassis dyno and make some factual test like the Tulsa Club did with Heads& Cams!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ou812 on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 09:05 pm:

Read the previous posts.
What a bunch of typical MTFCI Forum nonsense.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven G. Williams on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 09:58 pm:

How many of us need to post "I did everything i was supposed to do, but the car still overheated. I removed the waterpump and thermostat, and it hasn't overheated since" for folks to understand ya don't need no stinking waterpump!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Nicholson on Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 11:04 pm:

Hi Jeff, now I don't want to get into the whole water pump debate, but I will share my story. I have a basically bone stock 25 coupe that I bought about 6 years ago. It had a pump on it when I got it. It leaked like a faucet, so I replaced it with a rebuilt one because I believed that it should make quite a difference.

Well I drove it in my first parade and she boiled over. After I talked to a few people, I discovered that I didn't advance the timing far enough and I had it a little lean. So the next parade came and I thought I had it licked. Sure enough, boil, boil boil!

Now it was getting embarrasing. So off came the head. I cleaned out the block, drilled out the small coolant holes, checked the radiator(which is a flat tube) and replaced the hoses, headgasket, timer, carb, wiring harness, plugs, belt, valves, springs, and checked the initial timing. I got it now!!! WRONG They started calling me "old faithful"!!!!

Next I gave the fan blades more pitch and installed a 26/27 hub so the blades would be closer to the radiator. I also installed a small electric fan under the hood. I had the coils checked and rebuilt the coil box. Everything I did helped, but I still couldn't make it through a parade or putsing around town.

Well one day I decided to go for a drive. I backed it out of the garage and stopped about 1/4 mile down the road to pick up a board. I happened to feel the radiator and it was already hot. I would make a gurgling sound when it was running. I figured I maybe had a head gasket leaking so I turned around and drove in the shop. As soon as I shut the key off, it stopped gurgling. So I went to my parts stash and found a pipe and took off the pump. I also had a spare shorter belt, so I was set. I turned right back around and it hasn't boiled over since! I have done numerous parades in full summer heat without one hint of overheating on the motometer!

Now, I know it isn't a scientific test, but it is all the proof that I needed in my situation. Just out of spite, my pump now makes a great wheel chock!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - St. George, UT on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 09:41 am:

None of you non-waterpump guys have explained why there were so many T waterpumps made and sold in the era.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 09:55 am:

The same reason that people sold every kind of accesory for the Model T inspired people to sell water pumps. The theory being "It doesn't have one, so it obviously needs one".

This is further proof that in theory, theory and reality are the same. In reality, they are not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mitch on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 10:04 am:

Same old sad arguments..
"waterpump v/s no-waterpump...and my favorite... "coils v/s distributors" Maybe we should send letters to "Mythbusters" to solve these debates once and for all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - St. George, UT on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 10:12 am:

Illogic is not good enough reason, Royce. There were at least 60 brands of waterpumps made for the T back in the era, and many thousands made. If you don't mind it boiling on the hills, like Henry wrote, you don't need a waterpump.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harvey Decker on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 10:27 am:

Does having a water pump HURT the SYSTEM? What is the down side?

Harvey .....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 11:15 am:

Down side: One more part to fail, one more part to grease & eventually restore.

The worst downside is the multitude of water pumps that were bad designs from the beginning & never moved much water. Are there any more era pumps than the Climax that are considered good?

An original car with a good radiator didn't need a pump back then & won't need one now - but they were sold to folks who had used cars with problems beginning to show - and some problems were temporary solved or hidden by adding one of the good pumps available then.

In cars originally designed for a water pump, the pump is always accompained by a thermostat so the water may get up to operational temperature as quick as possible, to reduce wear & fuel consumption. This is another possible problem , if a T is equipped with an effective pump, but no thermostat,

So if you have a boiling leakfree old radiator & don't have the immediate funds to buy a new one - then a Climax or similar working pump + a thermostat may help temporarily.
Also if you have an accessory ohv head, then a pump is mandatory.

But for most T:ers with good radiators, you'll have less worries without a pump.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - St. George, UT on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 11:32 am:

I'm not sure OHV requires a waterpump, but I'm not going to the trouble removing it to find out.

My Henry pump seems to work good, and the 180 thermostat means I never see any temperature on the motometer, except at speeds below 5mph. Have driven thousands of miles now without a fan.

Before installing a waterpump, new or used, I would dip it in a bucket of water, spin the shaft, and make sure it pumps. I've heard there is one new one that only churns the water, which gives a bad rap to the rest.

Stainless rod for shafts is available from McMaster.com, which is where I bought the one to restore my Henry, along with bushings.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 11:36 am:

I've thrown away a leaking water pump from each Model T I have owned. Each time this resulted in no leakage and a cooler operating Model T.

Ralph, have you ever owned a Model T besides the current one? If so, have you ever actually tried operating without a water pump? Its pretty hard to argue with the results, having tried it both ways.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 03:25 pm:

Here is a link to the Speedy Bill museum T water pump collection. Whether you need a pump or not is up to you and I won't get in the middle of the pisssing match even tho I have a truck with one on and a couple other T's that don't. It is, however, interesting to look at the 100 or so different designs.
I have 25 or 30 of these and had more until I sold some a couple years ago. I like the UNEEDIT and the CIR-KU-LA-TOR names the best. I has several NOS ones. Maybe they bought them and were going to put them on and then read the forum and found out that all those people who had bought one and put it on were wrong. Should have the read the forum first, I guess. Interesting that 6 months after they built the last car that didn't need a water pump under any possible circumstances they came out with one that did need one and had it built into the engine right at the factory. Oh, well.

http://museumofspeed.org/Collections/SpeedEquip/WaterPumps/WaterPumpsThumbs000.s html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 03:45 pm:

Correct step-by-step procedure to rebuild Model T Ford water pumps:

STEP ONE: *FLING*


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 04:12 pm:

Stan,As it relates to back in the day i wonder what Herman thought about it?? Do you suppose a Swell ever took time to show Herman the proper way to crank?? My Wife has a 29 Towne Sedan and i think your right as the water pump looks as if it was put on at the factory?? O well,after my last bout with the gas lites i aint shure what im thinking much less what people thought 90 years ago!Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 04:18 pm:

Stan,

Same question to you as I posed to Ralph: Have you ever tried a Model T without a water pump? Do you even own a Model T that runs?

It is hard to argue with what works in the real world, with all due respect to the deep connection with fiction that you certainly have.

Royce


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 05:12 pm:

Royce, it says right there in the post that I have one that has a pump and two that don't. How hard is that to understand?

What I actually should have said is that the last two cars I had I removed the water pumps. That includes the last Montana 500 car I had. I put a new radiator on it also. Tom Carnegie at Antique Auto Ranch in Spokane sold it to me. You can check with him since you obviously would not believe anything I said.

As far as whether I have a T or not, I got my first T in 1955, when I was 13. That is 53 years ago. I have the same 1925 truck I got when I was in high school. It has the same body, engine, tires, radiator, etc., etc. that it came from the factory with. It still has the same Clemco water pump that came on it. I see no reason to take it off. During that 53 years I have owned a T of one kind or another most of the time. For about 25 years I lived less than a mile from Lewis Rector and the Town Museum restoration shop. I spent countless hours there helping Lewis and learning from him.

I have owned somewhere around 25 different T's over the years. Currently, you are correct, I do not have a driver other than the truck, which is stored at a friend's ranch near my ranch in eastern Montana. I have not had it started for a couple years. I sold my restored 1926 roadster to a man in Calgary whose wife has a brain tumor. He wanted to buy my car because he knew it was tour worthy and they wanted to put some time in on some tours before her physical condition reached the point they were unable to tour. As near as I know they have had no problems with anything on the car. I put a new radiator on it and removed the water pump while I owned it. You could verify this with MTFCA Board Member Kieth Robinson since you undoubtedly would not believe my statement. While you're at it, ask Kieth who fixed his engine on the Post Falls tour.

I have a 26 roadster pickup setting in the back yard and my 26 cut down roadster waiting for me to get time to work on them. The 26 pickup will be my next Montana 500 car. My first Montana 500 car was in 1964. I have not been on the race since 2005. You could verify with the officers of the 500 that I was on the board of directors for several years, was the vice president for several years when Tony Cerovski was president and that I was the one who led to the review and rewriting of the rules.

I also have in "inventory" two trucks, a speedster project, 11 Ruckstells and about 30 engines along with about half an acre of derilect cars and parts. In the last ten years, as near as I can remember I have bought and sold 4 26/7 Roadsters, a 26 touring that went to Norway, three trucks, including the one Fred Schrope bought, an 18 Roadster, a 21 pickup, a 15 touring and a couple others. The reason I stop at ten years is that is just since ebay came along.

During that time I also bought the David Wilson T parts collection in Logan, Mt that took over 15 loads with my F-350 flatbed and 24 foot trailer to move to our storage area.

Wanna come see my K R Wison combination machine and my babbitt/line bore equipment? Wanna come see my Van Norman 900 S boring bar? How about my lathe and mill and Snapon Valve grinder and K O Lee valve seat insert tools? Wanna come see my Ruckstell rebuilding setup? I'm getting started on rebuild numbers 30, 31, 32.

Want a list of my other books and magazine articles? They aren't all fiction, Royce.

Now, since you are the guru of all this and challenge everyone who disagrees with anything you say, let me ask you this? What is the longest, highest hill you have ever pulled with a loaded TT truck with no water pump? Hell, for that matter, what is the longest hill you've ever pulled and the fastest you're ever gone in your fancy restored T's? What is the highest elevation you've ever been at in a T?

I doubt if you've ever even been in a truck with a load on it.

NOTE TO NEW FORUM MEMBERS: NEVER TRY TO POST ANYTHING ON THE FORUM THAT JUST MIGHT BE INTERESTING FOR SOMEBODY TO READ OR A LINK THAT MIGHT TAKE THEM TO SOME INTERESTING PICTURES. YOU WILL BE JUMPED RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF & BE CHALLENGED AND INSULTED BY A COUPLE OF THE EXPERTS IMMEDIATELY.

Well, I have work to do, I'm working on another Stromberg OF carburetor for a guy who brought it to me at Centerville to bring home and rebuild.

I was gone the whole weekend playing music for a couple geezer deals and am tired today. That's why I was fooling around on the computer in the middle of the day.

Royce, I'm sorry I posted something I thought might be interesting. It won't happen again if I can help it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Hansen on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 05:49 pm:

Stan---Damn good post—it needed to be said---Totally agree


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lawthers on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 06:20 pm:

Jeff,

I am fairly new to the Model T world. I bought a 26 Touring in May of 2006 which was my first T.
I have, and have had, many an old car but nothing as old as the T.

As with anything new to me, I always seek out more experienced peoples help. This forum was my best source of information when I first got my T, and is still number one in my book today.

One of the first things I did when I started going through the car I purchased, was to remove the water pump that was leaking and put things back to the way they were originally. My car has its original round tube three row radiator that just about everyone said would no longer work.

My normal drive is around the dirt roads where I live. I usually go out for an hour to an hour and a half at a time running at 8-12 mph. Occassionally, I will take it out for a short distance on one of the few paved roads and run at 35 mph.

Even though I have an old radiator, I have never once overheated since removing the leaking water pump that came with the car. When I come back after a drive in the desert summer heat, I can hear the thermosyphon system belging away for a few moments after shut down. I use to think that was a cause for alarm, but have since found this to be normal. Also, when I first got the car I was over filling the radiator. I would drive along for a while and see water flinging out of the radiator cap and hitting the windscreen. After being told that the radiator should not be filled any higher then the level of the Ford logo on the radiator, my problems went away.

I know and have found that there are several topics on this forum that come with controversy, this topic certainly is one of them.

I hope this will be of some help to you in making your decision.

Tom L
26 Touring


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 07:08 pm:

When a radiator gets old the fins are no longer attached to the tubes and the radiator will not cool. A quick fix is to add a water pump if you do not want to re-core your radiator.

To actually answer the question asked, yes a water pump can be rebuilt. If you do not have fancy machine shop to make new bearings for it, simply go up a few thousandths of an inch on the shaft size and line-bore out the bushings to the new shaft size just as you would fit a crank shaft.

Select a piece of nominal stainless steel or monel shafting that is 1/16th of an inch larger in diameter than the one you have. You will have to step the shaft down at each end in order to fit the impeller and the pulley onto the shaft and you will have to pin them in position. Sometimes these items are threaded and then in that case you will have to cut threads on your shaft. There were just too many different water pumps made for kits to be supplied so you must whittle a new shaft out of a chunk of stainless steel or go have it rebuilt by someone who knows how to do what I have just explained here today.

If you want to make folks angry, just hang an electric fan behind the radiator and it will cool it until the radiator falls off of the car in a heap of old metal. Oh yes, but then you need a modern generator and a big battery and switches and on and on and that makes folks angry too.

Ron the Coilman is right. A modern flat tube radiator does not need a water pump.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard G.Goelz Knoxville,Tn on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 08:11 pm:

I read in an article somewhere that the Ford dealers were installing water pumps on the 26/27 models when Ford went to the two row core,this was supposed to help ,there was a two row and a waterpump on my 26 when i bought it, the pump is out in the garage somewhere, at best it is a stirrer.
Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Collins on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 08:25 pm:

Thank you everyone for the info.

Who new I hit the hottest topic on the forums. Seems like saying waterpump to some people is like saying a four letter word.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 08:51 pm:

It is - "PUMP". Mention an electric fuel pump and the same thing happens.

Seth :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 09:14 pm:

to answer the question about rebuilding the water pump.New bushings are going to be needed.And you will find wear on the shaft that may cause problems.That is why it would be best to see about getting a newshaft and bushings to match.The impellers,if rusted could be more of a problem than a asset if they come apart.They could stop up ports and cause heating problems.If the impeller is good then that is a start.
Some water pumps depend on a good backing plate to work right.the 1 I have laying around has a very rusted back plate that would need to be made to get the clearance correct.
I will say noone will come and stomp a mudhole in ye for putting a water pump on your car.If you feel like you want or need it,then install it and enjoy the T.That is the important thing to remember.ENJOY the car,dont spend you time worreing over is this correct or that.
Stan,please continue posting stuff,intresting or not to others.I for 1 appreciate your input and experiance.Dont deny all of us over a few folkes that are offended,That is what is wrong with the world now,people go thru life afraid they may offend someone.

My experiance with my TT was at first a leaking old radiator that was the best I could find at the time.It worked ok but when you cut the engine off it would really percalate,you could see it bulge in and out.
I spoke of starting a second project and needing a radiator here on the forumn years ago and someone from Florida sold me a good used flat tube for 75 bucks.Then the radiator in the TT really went south,so I had to use that flat tube to keep the TT going.Aint had a heat problem since I installed it.
My second T project wound up being a low radiator because I had a good hood,and a good looking radiator that I did have resolder the connections good and a few leaks.It had been stored for many years.Had 1963 newyork newspapers cramed in the holes.That T has only heated once,and that was when I drove it a couple miles with the timeing retarded and then it was only a bit of steam.problem gone in seconds once the lever was pushed down.
I aint got a water pump on neither T.My TT can be seen in the profile,here is the second 1.Just so folkes can see I do have 1 that runs.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 09:20 pm:

Stan,

I think the highest I ever went in my '15 was in 1989 at the Estes Park Colorado tour. I don't remember how high it was but Ralph Zaijcek drove his paddy wagon up to the lunch at the summit. Thankfully Ben Yumori left the calliope at the bottom of the hill. I like Ben just fine but the calliope music was getting old.

I went about 160 miles in my '15 yesterday. It will go 50 but I don't drive that fast in a stock T because I am smarter than that.

I've never driven or ridden in a TT truck but might some day if I had a place to put one.

Stan I saw you at the Centennial but there was no Model T parts or cars in your swap space so I didn't bother going over there.

Stan I never claimed to be an expert on water pumps. I do claim to have removed three of them with excellent results. You seem to be an expert at over reacting when asked a simple question. I asked if you had a T that ran because I could not believe any one who had much experience with T's would have much use for a water pump.

Royce


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 09:38 pm:

Yeah, right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 10:33 pm:

Well i have had only 3 T's The 15 not correct roadster i gave to my Grandson that will overheat at the drop of a hat if you try to go pumpless,rebuilt and a new brassworks rad.The 23 running chassis i gave away was pumpless but i never ran it out of the barn so i dont know if it would run cool or not?? I tryed to go pumpless with the 14 but after maby 2 miles we were boiling! After i installed a Anderson timer this year it now runs cool but i have yet to remove the pump again.A Flat tube is not a option for me and after getting what is poor service out of a new expensive brassworks round tube i hesitate to throw money at the T!! All Model T's were not the same then or are they now,and there was a reason why so many water pumps were sold and even a dissrupter or two!! I hope this dont sound irate [spelling optional] cause im actually laughing at some!! Nope,It aint chocolate!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave DeYoung on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 08:35 pm:

Jeff:

To pump or not to pump, that is the misguiding question. Moving the coolant is the job of thermo-syphoning. Cooling the coolant is the job of the radiator. Thermo-syphoning is dependant on a good performing radiator.
Thermo-syphoning works on the temperature difference between the engine and the radiator. If the radiator doesn't do it's job cooling, you will not have enough of a temerature drop to make the coolant move properly. Forcing the coolant throught the radiator with a pump will not make the radiator cool any better.
You need to find out why the radiator is not cooling or what is restricting the coolant flow.
What can cause poor radiator performance? Bad fin to tube contact as Ron Patterson said. Lime built up in the radiator from the prolonged use of water will insulate the radiator. It will also restrict flow. Poor air flow past the core tubes and fins. My favorite is painting the radiator with body paint to match the rest of the car. Body paint will insulate the radiator and stop heat transfer. Only use radiator paint as it will not impede heat transfer.
What causes poor coolant flow? Rust and debris on top or in the core tubes. Blocked passages in the head and block. Not using the metal tube from the radiator to the inlet on the motor. Using just a hose will result in that hose being sucked close under normal thermo-syphoning action. Yeh, it pulls that hard.
Is the engine producing more heat than normal? This can be caused by late timing, an incorrect fuel miture or a leaking head gasket. Even under a hard pull, the T radiator should be adequate to cover the cooling needs.
These are the questions you need to ask yourself and solve. Do this and your T will always run cool without a pump. Anything else and your throwing good money after bad.

Dave DeYoung


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 10:01 pm:

I bet most of the Ts using Thermobarf cooling are the ones that are fouling #1 plug, and have to run X sparkplugs.

Look at the long horizontal run to #4 and back to the rad, vs. for #1.


rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave DeYoung on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 10:32 pm:

Rick:

It's an interesting thought, but it has it's flaws. Most plugs foul due to running cold, to rich a fuel mixture or oil. The #1 plug should be in the warmest part of the motor.
With thermo-syphoning, warmer coolant will move faster than the cooler coolant thus equalizing the temperature across the head. This actually helps in keeping the back cylinders warmer.
You should also realize that the run from #4 to the radiator get progressively larger toward the radiator, This provides greater cooling capacity in the front of the motor and allows the thermo-syphoning dynamics to move freely.

Dave DeYoung


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Draude on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 10:34 pm:

I have a round tube radiator and recently removed a vintage water pump because of the constant leaks. On a long run up a hill, a little water came out of the radiator cap. According to the Ford article above, that apparently is “normal.” I did not consider it a problem. However, if I lived in the twenties, and lived at the top of the hill, I may not have wanted to accept that as “normal” and may have gone looking for a solution. So to say Henry built 15 million of them that worked fine may be a matter of definition. Per the article, some overheating was normal. But it was overheating. And not everyone wanted to accept it. Then or now.

So what was someone to do back then if one did not want to accept “normal” overheating? There were lots of aftermarket water pumps to try. Some solved the overheating problem, even if they may have caused cool running. But they solved the problem at hand. I have not seen old ads for flat tube radiators. I do not know when they became popular.

I find it interesting that some consider it “un-Henry” to install a vintage water pump, but instead suggest installing an “un-Henry” flat tube radiator so one need not install an “un-Henry” water pump. The flat tube radiator may leak less than a pump, but it is also not a Henry design, and seems more modern than a vintage pump.

So it seems to me one can keep the car most “Henry” and have “occasional” overheating (per the article) by running a round tube radiator and no pump. Or be “un-Henry” and install a vintage water pump and have leaks. Or be “un-Henry” and install a modern flat tube radiator and stop the leaks. Or be really “un-Henry” and install a water pump and flat tube radiator- but then we may have to decide if it is still a T.
Tom


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 10:43 pm:

The most "Henry" thing to do is get out cheap as you can to keep down overhead!
:>)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Dodd on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 11:10 pm:

Jeff
This is quite simple. Your water pump needs help so you took it off. You want to drive the car. Find an elbow to put on the engine along with a shorter fan belt. Drive the car while you rebuild the pump. I am sure the way the car runs will dictate how quickly the the pump gets fixed.

Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Speedster Inc. on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 11:19 pm:

Mack-Daddy,
Love that picture. I wouldn't change a thing
JS


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave DeYoung on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 11:41 pm:

Tom:

The August 1928 parts book lists a flat tube design for 1924-1926. Part #4817B1. That makes it a Henry radiator. I've had Montgomery Wards flat tube radiator with production dates in the early thirties.
The coolant level in the radiator, if to high, will cause overflow on a hard pull. That may be why they said it was normal.
Most of the overheating problems I hear about involve using water. I would like to hear from T owners why they don't use antifreeze.

Dave DeYoung


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa in Poulsbo, WA on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 11:48 pm:

Mack,

That picture contains the second ugliest thing I've ever seen. :-) LOL

Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 11:51 pm:

I know for a fact thermosyphen will work and will work very well with a large radiator large water passages,and a large fan.The F-20 Farmall we farmed with had all that and even hotter than heck plowing and i never did see it boil.The problem was and still is the Model T had extreemly small/marginable componets at best.I have limited experance but as i see it those little brass radiators were too small for the job. Why were there changes in heads,fans,radiators,and even the 17 had a fan shroud!I may be all wet about this but i think the Honeycombe was more effencent at cooling but it was harder to repair and more costly?? When asked about the aftermarket honeycombe rad for a T found in my Grandads barn almost 50 years ago my Dad told me T's often gave trouble overheating and that brand of rad helped.When asked about the Attwater Kent?? Disrupter found same barn my Dad said the Timer Roller and Coils often gave a lot of trouble and the coils were hard to adjust.Farm people of the day i dont think bought new coils at the drop of the hat and when did the hand crank coil testers come out and did all Ford Dealers have them?? Sometimes i think we need to think about the world then instead of chugging down the concreat/tarvi road of today?? Ever drive a T in sand where every foot is in low plenty of throttle and a death gripp on the wheel?? See how long it takes to make steam! Your darned right Henry was cheap and i doubt he ever approved a change unless it made him more money or he was forced into it! In 1909 the Model T was right for the World as it was then and then it changed the World but do some actually think there was not plenty of trouble along the way???Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 12:43 am:

I have a 13 touring with the correct engine that has a Brass Works flat tube rad. and fought heating problems for over 5 years before adding a Texas T water pump. The car no longer heated but the pump pushed so much water it would empty the rad. thur the over flow tube. The block was cleaned with acid and the coolant stays clean (No Rust Stain). Next, I made a restrictor plate that I placed between the water pump and the block. The hole in the brass restrictor plate is the size of a quarter. That corrected the losing water problem and our car no-longer over heats. We attended the last Estes Park tour and completed the entire tour with out any problems....climbed many hills and had a great time. And No! the brass works rad. is not pluged and is clean inside. I use distilled water, coolant together with water wetter in the rad.
On the other hand my father has a 12 roadster with a 27 engine and does not need a water pump. His car never seems to have any heating problems. His rad. is also a brass replacement flat core style.
Most of my friends do not use water pumps on their model T's but a few do.
Royce....I have walked the walk! It is my experiance that some T's require water pumps to control heating problems. I agree that most do not need water pumps. I work in a machine shop, have re-built numerous engines over the years but do not consider all model T engines as being equal. Build 2 engines side by side using the same after market parts, same spec's and one runs stronger or hotter than the other. Why? It is a fact that numerous water pumps were manufactured for model t's. If no model t's required a water pump to control heating problems why were so many made? There may be some hidden problem with my 13 block that was not detected during the re-build process. Another 13 block that I have has a core shift problem. Another looks Ok. As I stated before: "All Are Not Created Equal". Hopefully, when I build a replacement engine for our 13 it will not require a water pump.
Royce.....Hope some time I get to meet you and tour together. We could have a great time talking about water pumps and what type oil or ignition is best for our Model T's. Smile! Les Von Nordheim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie in Houston on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 05:42 am:

Just love to see fellow model T folks get along that well.
PS Some anti-freeze in a marginal cooling system can help also because it does a better heat transfer and slightly raises the boiling point.
And Royce, it will work on a pump equiped car or one without a pump.
Anti-freeze also slows down all that rust you get with plain water and prevents freezing.
Hope this helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 05:56 am:

IMO, a better investment for cooling if your car or truck has a marginal radiator would be the replacement of the low-compression cylinder head with a high-compression one, such as the Z.

The engine will run cooler, the exhaust valves and manifold will run much cooler, and your T will use less fuel - driven under the same conditions as before the head change.

Disclaimer: My car's engine was stock but I have several very reliable friends that have switched to Z heads and they have told me that their cars ran cooler. The exhaust valves, exhaust manifold, and fuel economy thing I added - based on over 100 years of proven engine design theory.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 09:03 am:

You dont reckon there was casting problems with some blocks and certian ports are clogged with cast iron that could cause a few to over heat and such do ye?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 02:44 pm:

Mack & Seth,
I am running the stock low head on my 13 T touring. Switching to a Z head having more water capacity would help the car run cooler and possibly eliminate the need for a water pump.
It is interesting that Ford switched to a high head in later years. The high head has less compression but more water capacity like the Z head. The high head has more cast iron than a low head....and should have cost slightly more to manufacture than a low head. We are told that the high head was developed because of lower grade fuel. Could it be that the main reason for the change in head design (Increased Water Capacity) was to correct a design defficiency with the low head? Lowering the piston dome height would be a more cost effective change to reduce compression than designing/manufacturing a new head.
Many improvements were made over the years that model T's were produced. From an external inspection, when Compairing my 13 blocks to several 27 blocks in my stash it is obvious that Ford had developed tighter controls on later casting. As an example, in order to install a Strip 280 cam in my 13 block required milling material from inside the block to allow the back side of the tappet to clear the block. Otherwise, most tappets would bind against the block when trying to rotate the cam shaft. Having the 13 block in my mill, I was able to measure the variation in the as cast surface in the tappet hole areas. With the 27 block there was much less variation and installing a 280 cam did not require any block modifications. I know it is sometimes hard to keep and open mind when it comes to what is best for our model T's.
You may not agree on anything that I have said above....However, do check that the tappets are not binding against the block if you install a 280 cam. Make sure the cam shaft rotates freely before assembling and starting the engine. And Yes! I love the 280 cam compaired to a re-grind original.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 02:54 pm:

Les,

I don't know about all that about the inside of the block but I would imagine that their casting prowess kept improving over time. Obviously it wasn't too bad to start with since they managed a one-piece block in the fall of 1908.

Not only did the coolant volume in the head increase when the high-head came out, but the radiator got bigger in the first black cars (1917 model year) and then again when the high-hood arrived (1924 model year).

Come to your own conclusions why Ford did that.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 07:43 pm:

Seth,
In our family, we also have a 14 Hupmobile that is thermocycle. It does not have heating problems but the Radiator is much larger than my 13 T. It has the original honey comb style core. The Hupmobile is also rated at 20 Hp. The upper tank outlet/hose is larger than a T. I enjoy our T, meeting new friends in the hobby and going on tours. One of the greatest things about owning a model T vice other antiques is the availability and low cost of parts.....both new and used. Lets hope the new crankshafts are good quality and the costs become more affordable. I look forward to meet you....We are planning on attending the Chickasha swap meet next year. There are many from the forum that I would like to meet.
Enjoy!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 08:02 pm:

You are kind Les, thanks! I'd really like to meet you sometime also. I'm sure we'd have plenty to talk about!

Thanks again, Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stu on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 08:18 pm:

So....do waterpumps work or not? What is the verdict?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By james dimit on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 08:55 pm:

Well Stu, I asked my 83 datsun and it said waterpumps are like visa- don't leave home without it.
(Other makes -models mileage may vary)
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 01:09 am:

I guess being an engineer I can't help but look at the questions that seem obvious to me that nobody has explained. If the water in the radiator is boiling then the engine water must be even hotter since the source of the radiator water is the engine water. How can a pump increase cooling in this situation since it would simply bring even more hot water from the engine to the radiator? Now if the radiator was NOT boiling and the water in the engine WAS boiling - then a pump could move the water from the engine to the radiator for cooling and eventual return to the engine. I am NOT too interested in answers that say "my radiator was boiling so I added a pump and now it is cool" since this is not an explanation of what really happened but rather is a contradiction in the laws of nature. I have my own ideas about why pumps were sold but I want someone to explain to me the reason a boiling radiator cools down when hotter water is then pumped into it. Be as technical as you want to but please explain where the heat went since the radiator clearly was not able to prevent the boiling until the pump was added if I am to believe the story.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Spainhower on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 03:00 am:

Because in fact, the radiator is not boiling - the water in the block is, which raises the pressure in the whole system, and the water percolates out the only escape - the filler neck. It's been a while since physics class, but I recall that water at 212° at sea level doesn't boil until you add so many calories/gram for the phase change. The water in the block doesn't have to be "even hotter". It just has to remain in contact with the heat source long enough to collect the energy for the phase change. The water pump delays that for the whole system by keeping the fluid moving once it reaches the boiling point. (The same is true on the flip side: a water/ice slurry remains at a constant 32° until enough energy is added for the phase change and all the ice melts, but it's a different number for ice->water than for water->steam.)

The thermosyphon system works on a temperature difference between the block and the radiator. That breaks down as the system approaches the boiling point, whereas a water pump system does not. Back to you, John...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 06:47 am:

If you cut the water pump in half it can never cause anyone any more trouble. You could also use a cutting torch with a cutting head. An abrasive disc mounted in a high speed hand held grinder is another efficient manner to disable these evil devices.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 09:33 am:

You must have other vehicles besides your Ts, Royce; have you butchered the waterpumps on those?

Go back and read the Ford Times article. It's testimonial why people bought and used waterpumps on Ts, and why they are still a good thing for many.

rdr
Who has never bothered to try thermobarf, as I'm more interested in fuel economy, engine life and reliability of my Ts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:25 am:

Bruce:

The claim has been made again and again that the water in the RADIATOR is boiling and I believe this to be true since I have seen that happen but I admit in those cases I never saw the pump help at all.

Back to you Bruce...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 01:22 pm:

In the day when i was a Journeyman Millwright we looked at extending a overhead conveyer and told the Engineer involved we could do it but it would take a Lot More Steel because the building only went to Bay G-27!! Thats a joke so dont boil! If we read on page 147 of Tin Lizzie by Stern we read about Harold Hicks trying to get 40 HP out of a Model A engine.Quote {There were insufficient water passagesaround the exhaustvalve.The passages were opened up,and the shape of the gasket changed.Within three weeks time we had our 40HP.Ouestion,do you think someone said the size of those holes was big enough for 15,000 000 million Model T's so???? At start up the size and shape proably did not affect power but used hard on a dyno or driven hard what do you think?? If a engine has insufficient water passages could hot spots make steam pockets and reduce thermal effiency in cooling?? Would a water pump help eleivate this,[spelling opt] Would a extra hole in the top of the block to line up with the [Sand Hole] in the head of the T-100 engines help??? Would it have helped the newbee when he ran it by the forum ?? 15 years ago??? PS,I saw a thing on tv last week and GM was talking about problems with the new VOLT Car development.Said something about battry cycles and a light came on but it was dim.Some may read this and decide pro or con while others may see the name and just pass because they know better! With all those unused pumps maby i could make a hanger to hang a pump on the runninboard with a short anchor chain so they could be easly removed for wheel chocks.With enough pumps,hangers,and chain i bet i could invent the BUD 4 wheel Brake! I just get dummer and dummer so read at your owne risk!! Laughing so hard i can hardly type let alone spell Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 02:12 pm:

Bud:

I love your thinking ha ha. I think those that buy the VOLT car will be really unhappy with the "usual" problem of a totally battery powered car which is SHORT RANGE and LOTS of recharge cycles which I suspect is what they are doing. GM has made some pretty bold claims that I think electrical engineers working there are having a hard time living up to. I personally would never get involved in a totally battery powered car without a total breakthrough in battery technology. Except in unusual ideal climate circumstances the range of these types of cars is just way too short. I don't think people would be willing to put up with a car that needs charging every night for 8 hours to get to work the next day. What happens if you forget to plug it in - do you call the boss and tell him your charger screwed up so you can't come to work? The way I see it - would anyone buy a gasoline car that only had a 1.5 gallon tank even though it only would take a minute to refill it each night?? The really bad news is that when an actual practical fuel cell car comes along - these folks are never going to buy one after the VOLT experience. Just my opinion and mileage will most certainly vary.

BTW - with regard to the rationale that "pumps must have worked because people bought them" - there were literally millions of "quack" medical devices out there that people bought. Have insomnia some night and watch some late night infomercials on bracelets that cure cancer - they sell too and they must work since people buy them. I think that pumps were sold as a fix for overheating and I think that people had overheating more likely because they were the only car in town and everybody fixed their own car and they didn't understand why it overheated. The average NEW T owner likely had no understanding of how the mixture control nor the timing would affect his overheating. He just knew the darn thing boiled and this pump was being sold to him as the "cure". Frustrated owner wouldn't be any harder to sell to than I was to be sold some aftermarket brake rotors for my "Built Ford Tough" F250 Super Duty after 5 brake jobs in less than 50K miles. Frustrated folks seek solutions and are easy marks for a supposed fix - then and now.

I'll let you know if the rotors work or not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Spainhower on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 02:47 pm:

John,

Hmmm. Thought I'd Google that recollection from physics class. Here it is. Once water is at its boiling temperature, it takes and additional 540 cal/gm to change it to steam. The radiator is a heat sink rather than a heat source, so it can't cause the water to boil. Only the block can, by transferring the engine's heat energy from the combustion chambers to the water.

My main point though, was that the thermosyphon causes water flow only when there's a temperature difference from top to bottom in both the radiator and block. Since liquid water cannot exceed 212°F unless it's under pressure, both the temperature difference and the water flow diminish as it approaches the boiling point. In a marginal cooling situation (parades, hills, 100°+ weather), thermosyphon efficiency tapers off, and Liz boils over. A water pump extends the cooling system's capabilities near the boiling point by keeping the water moving so it doesn't pick up that 540 cal/gm by staying in contact with the block.

Now, how much of a difference, and in what situations depends on a lot of other factors. I'm keeping my water pump though. Thermostat's a good idea too. (Uh oh, what did I let slip out? Dang!)

- Bruce


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 03:04 pm:

A little historical perspective might be in order here. A point that was salient in the day, whether true or not, was that the water pump KEPT the T from getting hot to begin with. By circulating water as soon as the engine was running it kept the engine cooler. I have no idea whether that is true or not but I know that was part of the conventional wisdom of the day and it seems likely to me. Another point. There was no antifreeze as we know it today. The winter protection was Alcohol mixed in a strong solution with the water. If you could keep the alcohol mixture circulating in cold weather it supposedly didn't "boil off" as fast as it did with the thermosyphon system. If you look at the history of when they were selling water pumps you would find that the sales were much larger after winter type coolants began to be promoted. The HUGE selling point of Prestone and similar winter coolants when they came along in the 30's was that they would not boil off as the alcohol mixtures did.
I don't know about the physics of the whole deal. But I do know quite a bit about what owners did in the day in cold weather country and rural areas.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 03:11 pm:

Just put some eggs in the radiator and go for a drive,then eat em for lunch!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 12:06 am:

Sory to hear about all the rotor trouble and to tell the truth that many warped rotors?? makes me wonder if the actuall trouble is the another part of the system as my brother in law has had a lot of trouble with a F-150?? Our 1999 F-250 Power stroke has almost 80,000 miles on the org brakes untouched! When one thinks of maby 30,000 miles of 5'th wheel hauling sometimes with also the 18' enclosed Haullmark T inclueded at 17,000 or somtimes 22,000 pounds im extreemly happy with my brakes. Maby there is still a little Model T in the F-250's and they all aint the same?? I would think before a battry car/truck on the highway normal use is possable a Standard Industry easly removable fits ALL and Charging/Exchange service centers are a must?? I also think unless cost are extreemly painful things will revert back to the same old stuff and a few years down the road we will see it all again! Eaven as we speak we can see some changes in things once written is stone because some good old boy?? says well bubba were going to have to back off a little while to make people [think??] we will change!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 12:53 am:

Sence adding the water pump and restrictor, I have not had to add any additional coolant for over 2 years. The level when cold stays approx. 2-1/2" below the bottom of the brass filler neck.
Also, before the water pump was added the spark plugs on the rear cylinders burned hotter than the front 2. Now, the plugs all burn a more consistant light color. Our model T is not a "Hanger Queen" we enjoy and use it.
I have enjoyed the technical input/explanations on the pro/cons of adding a water pump on a model T. I personally like "Ricks-Surf City" response.....a man of few words that made his point clear.
I like what the water pump is doing for our Model T. I should have tried it years ago .....would have saved me from dumping alot of coolant on the road. On a Knab Ut. tour without a water pump, I boiled out over a gal. of coolant climbing up the long grade heading to the north rim. On a recient tour in New Mexico, we climbed a much steeper and longer grade and did not need to add any coolant when we returned to the hotel. I may be the lucky one on which water pump I ended up using. However, without a restrictor the pump would also slowly empty the radiator. The engine never overheated with out the restrictor but the radiator would allway's be low after a day of touring. Enjoy!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 08:47 am:

Les,

I appreciated Ralph Ricks response too. As I expected, he had never operated any Model T without a water pump and no experience with a stock Model T.

In our local club we typically have 20 - 25 Model T's touring every month. Our monthly drives average about 130 miles. In our group of T's there are one or two that have water pumps. The cars that have the least trouble are the ones that don't have water pumps. None of the cars typically has an overheating problem.

I wonder if your '13 is overheating because of a fuel delivery issue? Have you tried swapping carburetors with a Model T that runs cool?

I recently had a problem with my '13 running on 3 cylinders at the Centennial and it would get hot too. In my case the #1 exhaust valve had carbon deposits on the seat that were keeping the valve from closing all the way. We had recently installed a straight thru NH carb. I think it was running too rich, causing the problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 10:09 am:

According to some on this Forum, a T with a waterpump is non-stock, and therefore unworthy. I don't feel a bit bad about running a non-stock T. A fast T can always go slow.

We ran the '98 Greatrace with stock high head, A crank, disturbutor, 180 thermostat and waterpump. Never overheated, except the day the head gasket failed and we used more water than gas. Never had plug foul, either. Ran NH Seattle to Ogden, then OF on to Boston. Our Speedster was off to the side in this pic near Ogden, as we didn't need gas. We were getting about 30mpg.



We ran the same engine in '99 Greatrace, Atlanta to Anaheim, but with stock low head and Schebler FA. Again, no fouled plugs or valves, and no overheating.


Royce, you just suffered what I postulated, and Les verified: Thermobarf makes #1 run too cold, while the rears run hot. Both Les and I have seen that the waterpump makes all cylinders run more closely to the same temperature.

Go ahead folks, hang up your waterpumps, and spend $100 or so on X plugs, fiddle with sparks and carbs, and still suffer barfing and poor fuel economy. After all, that's the stock T experience.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 10:22 am:

Wasn't there some accessory sheet metal part that sits in the water inlet & diverts the flow towards the rear? Maybe something that came with a certain type of water pump? I think I saw it mentioned on the forum?

I've heard from fellow old car guys that the 1933-59 flathead Mopar sixes has a pipe of sheetmetal inserted in the water channels to direct the water flow. If rusted to pieces, they may overheat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 12:05 pm:

Royce,
I run a 3/8" fuel line and have tried the original 2 screw carb, Several NH's, a 15 Brass body holly but have not tried a Kingston. I switched from a 1/4" to 3/8" fuel line when we added a fuel filter....fuel flows freely thru filter. The carb. I am running now is a Tillitson with a no-name after market aluminum manifold. I have also tried the model A Zienth and a B carb. on this manifold but they would load up. The Tillitson does not load up even after idling for long periods. Throttle response with the Tillitson is much better than the others and I have been getting around 20-21 MPG on tours. The no-name aluminum manifold locates the carb. further back which may help on riching up the rear cylinders. I decked the block in my mill and checked it with a precison straight edge. I run standard chev. exhaust valves with hard inserts & stock springs. The valve seats were sunk too deep which required inserts in all valve seats. The valve job is 3 angle which keeps the seat narrow to help reduce the carbon build up problem. I ran the original coils/timer for 5 yrs. but switched to a dist. which produced a smoother running engine. With the dist. it performs good with AC spark plugs. I run a stock tea cup 3 dipper pan with added 4th oil trough. Also, run a 1/2" external oil line. Trued and static balanced the trans and engine. Run a ball bearing 4th main. Also run a 27 crank and rods with dippers. Changed from a driver cam to the 280 ....much stronger on hill. So far I am very happy with the way the engine performs now. Just got sick and tired of fighting the engine over heating. The aluminum piston cylinder clearance is .005". Even with that much clearance I still had scuffing on the pistons before adding the water pump. I am also building up a back up engine (27) with a chev. crank.
This has been my walk....I am always open to guidance on what works best. But do not agree that because Ford did it and built so many T's that it must be "right". Regardless, we share alot of common ground with our T's and I know you are very knowledgable and just as stubborn as me. Smile!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 12:43 pm:

I just tore the '13 engine down due to scuffing of the cylinder walls. I think .005" is probably too tight for aluminum pistons, made worse by the Chinese pistons I used.

Ralph, if a water pump made the engine run cooler it would make #1 cylinder cooler too, in concert with the others. My observation (not opinion) is that the water pump is unnecessary in a T that already runs with the temperature 1/4" from the bottom of the moto meter, about 180 degrees according to my Blue Point infra red thermometer.

The real issue with T water pumps is the lack of reliability that causes us all to have to interrupt our touring.

#1 problem - leakage.
These things typically leak some all the time. When they leak enough the car is low on coolant and then it overheats.

#2 problem - bad design. Most of the water pumps made in the T era actually block coolant flow. Others pump water the wrong direction! These type pumps cause overheating even when they are working perfectly.

#3 problem - pump quits turning.
This is common with the current reproduction "leakless" pumps. The pump may be leakless but when it is turnless (locked up, seized) the car overheats.

#4 problem - the belt falls off. Then the car overheats.

Again, this is observation, not opinion.

Bottom line: We still have 90 - 95% of Model T drivers on every tour who don't have a water pump on their Model T. These people never have a water pump problem. The very few people who do use pumps are the cause of problems for the rest of us.

Again, fact, not opinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Moe on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 01:10 pm:

Do waterpumps work or not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gee whiz....you guys sound like politicians...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 02:29 pm:

The pistons I used were bought approx. 10 yrs. ago from Eggy. I do not know where they were made. I do not have any experiance with old water pumps and most of the one's I have seen being used leak some at the packing nut. I run a cog style belt up side down for a fan belt. It is not original...stay's tight with no adjustment. It has not come off over the past 4 yrs. of use. Run the stock crank pulley. I am running a replacement T exhaust manifold....the original one requiring packing is hung up on the wall along with the original fan with brass hub. The replacement exhaust manifold appears to have a larger inside volume than the original which may reduce some back pressurd. The brass hub had small cracks and did not look safe. Replaced with a good steel small hub fan that I machined to accept modern sealed bearings. Was careful to find a replacement fan with tight blades. No longer throws grease all over. The leakless Texas T water pump I picked up at a swap meet still in the box. The person I bought it from had sold all his T's and was now selling the extra parts.
Now the truth be told which you may find the most interesting in all that I have said.....Under the rear seat....I have the original style lower water hose's & pipe in case my water pump fails including the original carb. and maniford. I also carry an extra electronic module in case the dist. takes a dump and also carry one model T coil for when one of my friends need one. So far....the only fault that I have found with the Texas T water pump is that it pumped more water than the radiator could handle and that is why I made a restrictor that is located between the water pump and block. In case the pump fails, the restrictor would come off with the pump which is a simple operation....provided the engine is cool. Possibly I got a bad brass works flat tube core radiator? It looks good, is clean inside...no corrosion and is expensive to replace. But anything is possible. I do not have an extra radiator to do a compairson study. It does a great job in conjuction with the water pump. Possibly the block has a casting defect in the water jacket? One other important item....I do not see any air bubbles in the radiator while the engine is running which could indicate a crack or a leaking head gasket. If that were the problem....the engine should over heat regardless of having a water pump and should also boil off coalant. I have access to a I.R. meter and could do some temperature measurements from cylinder to cylinder if that would provide something useful?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 02:44 pm:

Les,

A Poly-V belt (6 rib) might look better than a timing belt upside down. I ran a four-rib, but as you see, didn't run no stinkin' water pump. :-))

Enjoy! as you say...and have a fine weekend!

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 04:59 pm:

Royce, a couple points I'd like to discuss. There are some water pumps where the impeller is a close fit in the water chamber. With this type, any failure of the pump will impede coolant flow just as you point out. Eg loose or slipped fan belt, impeller coming loose on the shaft.
Some water pumps, Climax included, have enough clearance so the pump can fail and the water will still pass thru enough to keep anything serious from happening.
RE leakage, if the bushings and shaft are new and packing is used, leaking doesn't usually occur. If it does, its just a drop or two every now and then. Nothing to be concerned about.
From the experience you observed on tours, I question whether the pumps were rebuilt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 08:02 pm:

Seth,
I like the looks of your Poly-V-Belt. And I see you are not running a "Stinking" water pump. I am happy to say that I am running a good brand water pump....I want to stay away from the "Stinking" brand. I also see you are running one of them "Original" outside front oilers. Are you taking oil from the mag. post or is this one that has a scoop inside the hogs head. How do you like it? Have you checked the flow rate?
Have a great week end and I will try and stay out of any "Stinking" water pump discussions.
Enjoy! ....I think Texas T should provide me a life time supply of their water pumps for what I have to put up with running a "Stinking" pump...Gulp! May be they have? Smile


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 08:21 pm:



Les,

Homebrewed I gather but not homebrewed by me other than the copper pipe and brass fittings that replaced the gosh-awful rubber heater hose and black iron fittings that were there when I got the car.

Pickup seen in first picture. Settling tank "filter" seen in second picture. 3/4" NPT drain plug in setting tank. Always found lots of goo in there when I changed the oil. Lots of oil flow but no data to back that up so I guess I could be lying.

New owner happy with the car - probably not because it has the oiler and no "stinking" water pump.

Lighten up. To each, his own!

Smile, and enjoy. Life is too short to do otherwise. I'm sure you agree!

Sethster


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 09:38 pm:

james dimit,Another question to ask your 83 Datsun.:>)Does it's tailights ever give any trouble? There was a fellow had 1 that ran the local grill for years and I seldom payed for any food.i stayed busy trying to keep the #((@@ tailights and brakelights working.I finally got it right when I sandblasted the houseings and soldered ground wires to the houseings and put in new pigtails.Then later it got to where I was working on the #(@&#$ electric fuel pump.I was kinda glad he got rid of that thing.It was from up north eat up with salt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 10:50 pm:

Seth,
I think the way you did it is one good oil pump! The way you have it is positioned the pick up should develop oil pressure. Mind if I copy it. I assume you brazed the oil pick up on the hogs head. I am not familar with the "settling tank filter"....what is that off?
On our 13, I used a 1/2" line taken off the mag post hole. I enlarged the hole to 3/4" NPT and reduced it to 1/2" thru an elbow. It flows oil....however, the way you did it would flow much more. I like it....Just like Ford would have done it! Lots of oil helps keep the engine cooler.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff rey L. Vietzke on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 11:13 pm:

Yee gads! Did I just see a YELLOW fan? What color of water pump are you supposed to use in conjunction with THAT?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 11:21 pm:

Les,

I didn't do it at all. I bought the car that way but just added the bling of the copper and the brass. Good thing no acetylene flows through there, huh?

The settling tank is about 2.5" diameter by maybe 5" deep - it was made in someone's shop so it's off of nothing. There is some kind of diverter baffle in the top so that what pours in the top runs down the side opposite the engine. There is a steel tube, probably 1/4" ID, that comes out of the top of the tank and goes into the engine just below the pan/block flange and appears to squirt on the crankshaft timing gear.

This thing really flowed some oil. If I remember correctly, it flowed some 12 ounces of room temperature 10w-30 oil with 25% ATF by operating the electric starter (on 6 volts) maybe 10 seconds. Whatever it was, I just remember saying "holy crap!" when I checked it.

Agreed. The crank and rods love lots of oil.

Did it smoke out the tailpipe? Nope, not a bit.

Copy away. Be my guest!

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 11:24 pm:

Jeff,

If I'd had a stinkin' water pump, I'd have probably painted it model A engine green so that the purists would have had to put their glasses on to see it.

Seth :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Collins on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 08:19 pm:

Been gone for a few days, I come back and I have info overload.

Still have not had a chance to pull the water pump off to check out the difference. Will do that soon once I get a free day.

The only thing I've noticed with the T right now is that after I'm driving around for a bit maybe 45 minutes plus. That I can hear the water boiling in the radiator. Being new to the T experience I'm not sure that is good or bad. I know it's a boil through system.

Life has got in the way of my classic car habit. Dab blamet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 09:07 pm:

Uh what is the second most ugly thing you have ever seen Bob! Be_Zero_Be :>)



My belly button hanging out of the shirt,or me in general or my poor Bodyless T?

Surely not my Dad wearing his 50's vintage motorcylce hat ,who happens to be right in the steering wheel in the picture! that was just by accident.A freind took his picture beside his 58 harley and took mine beside my T.
The first uglyiest thing you ever saw must have been a really big mud pie or something?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Prochko on Tuesday, September 02, 2008 - 05:12 pm:

for what it is worth, I purchased a halfway restored '27 coupe in 1987 for use as a daily driver. It had just been fitted with a NOS Ford short block (standard cam, cast iron pistons).
the previous owner had installed a modern Walker radiatorm for in those days they were much cheaper than any of the "correct' radiators.

I installed a Ricardo head and Rocky Mountain brakes, and drove that cas in daily service (about 25,000 miles/year) for seven years, often in heavy stop-and go city traffic. The machine was not fitted with a water pump of any kind. I only once had a problem with the engine boiling. I was stuck in traffic on a 90+ drgree day, and the fan belt had slipped off of the fan pulley. Otherwise the machine ran as cool as a cucumber.

My current machine is a 1921 coupe which has been fitted with a Peerless honeycomb radiator. I am not using a water pump, but , once agina, have seldom if ever seen them machine boil.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 03:08 am:

Due to my wife and I having to take care of my 91 year old mother who was recovering after a fall, I've been away from the forum for a couple months. However, I think I just read the longest single thread I've ever read in the forum, and guess what? I still don't know if a water pump on a Model T is a good idea or not. Seems that some folks swear by water pumps, and some (me included) swear at 'em! I have made up my mind to one thing though; I'm pretty sure that most Model T after-market water pump manufacturers were not particularly interested in producing a water pump that would help the Model T owner with overheating problems. They were mostly interested in selling water pumps!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa in Poulsbo, WA on Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 10:38 am:

Mack,

I saw the first ugliest thing when I passed by a mirror :-) LOL

Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Niedzielski on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 01:19 am:

Ricks, I too have a couple of Henry Water Pumps. How do you get that special big brass nut, with the square end protrusion, out of the housing without wrecking or damaging it? Did you heat the housing and make up a special wrench to get if off? I would like to put in a new shaft.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Marina, Calif on Thursday, September 04, 2008 - 06:30 am:

Mine had already been tortured by a prior removal, Ed, so I didn't worry about further damage. Heating is a good idea; it's been a few years. I used a big pipe wench on the rim.

rdr


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