Australian produced 1926-1927 Roadsters and Tourings – how much structural wood and where?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2008: Australian produced 1926-1927 Roadsters and Tourings – how much structural wood and where?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 10:56 pm:

Bottom line up front: Do the pictures below show the proper wood and its location for an Australian 1926-27 roadster? And please post photos and information of the wood used in an Australian 1926-27 roadster or e-mail them to Hap at: FordPiet@aol.com. Thanks.

Hi all, I’ve asked this question in the past but I now have some photos of an Australian 1926-27 Roadster body to ask questions about. I would like to try and confirm how much wood the Australian produced roadster and touring bodies of the 1926-1927 style used.

I believe the Australian 1926-27 roadster and touring bodies continued to use structural wood (sills, pillars, etc) rather than using steel structural members (sub-rails etc) that the USA and Canadian 1926-27 roadster and touring bodies used. That is based on several previous postings on the forums and also Peter Kable in his article on page 19 of the May Jun 1979 “Vintage Ford” stated,

“In July of 1925 work was begun and the first Ford rolled off the assembly line in 1926. This factory was built in Geelong, Victoria, and had 600 employees. Truck and car chassis were made but bodies were still subcontracted out to body builders. We therefore didn’t see the “all steel” body. All bodies, including the “Geelong body” (as the last of the production became known) were wooden framed. It was 1930 before Ford made body panels here, and fenders were imported up until 1950.”



Above is an illustration for the Price list of parts showing atypical 1924 USA style roadster body wood (high cowl and before the 1925 reduction in wood) (used by permission from Bruce McCalley’s “Comprehensive Model T Ford Encyclopedia CD” available at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/mccalley.htm ). You can also see that at Cubel’s wood kit site at: http://www.fordwood.com/images/road23new.jpg



Above is a picture of a typical 1926-27 roadster body – they Ford price list of parts did not include an illustration of the wood – but you can see it labeled in this illustration (also from Bruce’s CD used by permission). You can also see it at Cubel’s at: http://www.fordwood.com/images/road26new.jpg


If the termites ate all the wood out of a 1926-27 roadster body the seat springs would not be supported properly but the body would still be structurally sound (I’m not sure about the hinge for the door ). But on the 1925 and earlier cars if the termites ate the wood – the body would no longer be attached to the chassis as the lower body wood sills would be gone. The doors would not open and close properly (wood in the doors gone) wood door pillars gone etc.

So what about the 1926-27 Australian produced roadster and touring bodies? David Schumacher has graciously sent me lots of photos of the body from his 1926-27 Australian bodied roadster (see his original posting at http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/63964.html ) He is planning to sell his Dad’s Model T, but he has been extremely helpful to me in providing pictures etc. of the wood used in the body. If you would please take a look at the pictures below and comment on which ones accurately show the Australian body construction (again using the Canadian provided panels) and which ones may have been modified by a previous owner over the years. Always the optimist – I’m hoping that it is all original wood and shows how it was routinely done. But knowing how Fords were modified over the years to keep them working – often times things were changed out or modified as needed. His Dad brought the car back to the USA from Australia 35 years or so ago. The chassis was cleaned up and painted but the body was not worked on. Compared to a standard USA wood framed body (1924 and earlier) the body below has several items that are significantly different. If anyone wants higher resolution photos – just click on my name and send me your e-mail and I will send you copies. I had to resize them so they could be posted.



Photo 01 -- Above is a photo of the roadster body to give you an overall feel that it is a 1926-27 style body we are discussing.



Photo 02 – Above a close up of the lower wood that was also shown in photo 01 above on the left hand side of the car.

Q1: Note the outline on the cowl panel where the floor board riser would normally be but is missing. It looks like a two piece wood sill – does anyone know if that is how they looked or if this was a replacement some where along the way?

Q2: Note the doors appear to be the standard all metal 1926-27 doors. Is that correct for an Australian body?



Photo 03 – Above is a picture of the right side driver’s door wood sill area. Metal cover is removed.

Q3: Does that look right?



Photo 04 – Above is a picture of the same right side driver’s door area from the inside of the car. Note the wooden floor board riser. That looks very similar to the wooden floorboard risers on many of the 1915-1920 USA Model Ts that I have seen. [note the transmission is a pre 1926 along with the engine – don’t let that distract you.]

Q4: Did the 1926-27 Australian cars have a wooden floor board riser?



Photo 05 – Above, the same area is shown from a slightly different angle. It also shows that the emergency brake is the late 1925 to 1927 style held on with two rivets. And in case you wondered, yes the rear cross member is the wider 1926-27 style, it has the 1926-27 large drum rear axle, 1926-27 wire wheels and hubs. That isn’t directly related to the review of the body – but it does help to confirm the body was on a 1926-27 chassis.



Photo 06 above shows the driver’s door hinge pillar area. Note the wood does NOT come all the way down to the lower sill. It appears similar to the same piece shown at Cubel’s for the USA 1926-27 Roadster see: http://www.fordwood.com/images/road26new.jpg

Q6: Did the Australian roadsters & tourings door jam wood piece join the lower wood sill or was there a gap?



Photo 7 above shows the driver’s seat area. Note the wood pillar in the door jam area and shorter piece of wood running towards the rear and located just below the top of the panel.

Q7: Do the other Australian roadsters and tourings have both those pieces of wood? Does the door jam pillar attach to the lower wood sill or is there a gap?



Photo 8 above shows a wooden front seat heal board rather than a metal front seat heal panel.

Q8: Did the Australian roadsters (what about tourings?) have a wooden front heal board rather than steel?



Photo 9 – square wooden seat frame – picture taken from the open driver’s side door. It looks old but I was really surprised to see that. I have no idea if the Australian bodies used the metal seat frame or the body maker there produced the body for Ford with the all wood seat frame.

Q9: Are other Australian roadsters (what about tourings) similar to that with a wood seat frame or do they have the metal USA style seat riser (which also looks a lot more square than I had realized and is shown below for comparison.)



Photo 10 above of a USA 1926 roadster front seat that also has a very square corner but is made of metal. From page 30 of the Nov-Dec 1980 “Vintage Ford” used by permission.



Photo 11 above shows the other side of the Australian seat. Note what appears to be a curved piece of wood that appears to replicate the curved metal outside piece on the USA seat frame in picture 10.



Photo 12 above shows how there is a wooden cross sill that bolts to the frame bracket rather than the 1915-1925 USA version where a metal bracket from wood sill of the body attaches to the metal frame bracket to hold the body to the car.

Q12: Are other 1926-27 Australian roadster and touring bodies held to the frame bracket by a wooden cross sill?



Photo 13 above shows a different underneath shot also showing the body sill running across the frame.



Photo 14 above shows the rear corner of the roadster body on the driver’s side (remember it is RHD). Wood is gone and you can see the splash apron and running board below.



Photo 15 above shows how the outside wood sill are a long ways from the frame and why sills/wood pieced running across the frame might have been needed. Note also that it has the pressed ridges in the seat back as well as the bolt holes for the turtle deck indicating it probably was a roadster body or at least a roadster body panel (ref page 409 Bruce McCalley’s book “Model T Ford” upper left two pictures.

So what do you think? Is it a reasonably good example of how the Australian 1926-27 roadster bodies were constructed?

If so, I would like to keep track of the car and hopefully gain some additional information. If I could be “king for a day” I would like to see a good sample of an Australian 1926-27 body with the additional wood exposed displayed at the MTFCA Museum. Depending on how the answers come out on this body – I will be checking to see if anyone else thinks an Australian body (and/or car) would be a worth while addition.

Respectfully requested,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glenn Pullin on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 11:32 pm:

Hi Hap
I dont know enough to be able to answer your question - but i do know some people who will. If you dont get a satisfactory response in a day or two, let me know and i will chase them down for you.
A pleasure helping out Hap,
Glenn


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Brand on Sunday, October 12, 2008 - 12:56 am:

Hi Hap. I can provide some info.

Q2: Note the doors appear to be the standard all metal 1926-27 doors. Is that correct for an Australian body?
A2: Yes - all steel.

Q4: Did the 1926-27 Australian cars have a wooden floor board riser?
A4: Yes - see photo below. Its hard to see here but it has a 2 piece sill.

foot riser

Q6: Did the Australian roadsters & tourings door jam wood piece join the lower wood sill or was there a gap?
A6. There is a gap. See photo above.

Q7: Do the other Australian roadsters and tourings have both those pieces of wood? Does the door jam pillar attach to the lower wood sill or is there a gap?
A7: I believe all roadsters have the 2 pieces. Tourings had 3 pieces. See photo below of the LHS panel (with rear door attached). There are 2 pillars (the front one is missing in this photo) and a horizontal piece between them at the top. The pillars joined the sills.

Touring LHS

Q8: Did the Australian roadsters (what about tourings?) have a wooden front heal board rather than steel?
A8: I believe so. As far as I know the entire sub frame and seat frames were wooden on the open cars. Australian enclosed cars had the steel sub-frame.

Regards, Andrew


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, October 12, 2008 - 08:32 am:

For Glenn – thank you for offering to help run down some of the information. If we don’t receive any confirmation or corrections on how the sub-sills/sub-floor was done on the Australian 1926-27 roadsters and tourings I will contact you and ask for that help.

For Andrew – thank you so much for taking the time to photograph those original panels. While they are a not driving around on a chassis those “fossil clues” are extremely helpful in figuring out how things were originally done. The wood framing in your pictures appear to be the same or extremely similar to the construction used in the roadster body pictures. I would guess [just a GUESS] that the cross sills in the roadster pictures are probably correct for that type of car. I did not see any major differences between the wood structure shown in your pictures and the construction shown in the roadster pictures. Since the cross sill wood in the roadster picture appears to be about the same age as the rest of the wood in the roadster body, I think there is a good chance it too will be correct or very similar.

Hopefully someone will be able to confirm that lower body sub sill wood one way or the other with a picture (a shot underneath a restored car would work as the wood sills should still be showing) or even better a sketch of the wood layout on an Australian 1926-27 roadster or touring. I think I read that someone had some drawings for the Australian wood structure, but I don’t remember if it was for the 1926-27 or the earlier cars. And of course the 1924 and earlier Australian bodies had numerous variations depending on which local body company produced the body.

For every one -- thanks for helping us discover a few more “fossil clues” about the Australian 1926-27 roadster and touring bodies.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Sunday, October 12, 2008 - 06:18 pm:

Here is why anyway. A letter direct from Henry Ford that was placed as a newspaper ad.

Henry Ford
Dearborn, Michigan

UNTIL WE LEARNED BETTER

Until we learned better, we used to mix wood and steel in our car bodies and wheels.
It was the best way to make bodies – then. But the state of the art has advanced.
Of course, it is more expensive to make an all-steel body than to make a wooden frame and nail steel panels to it. The better way involves an initial expenditure of several millions of dollars for new dies, which renders a change very costly. Cars, especially large expensive cars which are produced in small volume, cannot afford this, because the dies cost as much for one car as for a million. That alone explains why all-steel boodies are not used in all cars.
But our basic policy from the beginning is to make a good car better, regardless of cost.
For example, when we discarded wood-steel body construction, it was not because we lacked wood. We still have some thousands of acres of the best hard wood in America. Economy would urge us to use up the wood first, and then adopt the better all-steel body. But we decided that quality was more important than expense.
We weighed the reasons, for and against, before we made the change.
We could see only one reason for retaining a mixed wood-and-steel body – nailing the metal on, instead of welding an all-steel body into a strong one-piece whole. That reason was, it would be cheaper – for us.
Our reasons for adopting an all-steel body were these: A wood-steel body is not much stronger structurally than its wooden frame. In all American climates, wood construction weakens with age. Every used car lot gives evidence of this. Rain seeps in between joints and the wood decays. A car may have a metal surface, and yet not be of steel construction. Under extreme shock or stress the steel body remains intact – dented perhaps, but not crushed.
Steel does not need wood for strength or protection. Wood is fine for furniture, but not for the high speed vehicles of 1933.
In the Ford body there are no joints to squeak, no seams to crack or leak.
The all-steel body is more expensive – to us, but not to you.
By all odds, then, steel bodies are preferable.
Wheels also have become all-steel. No one argues that an electrically welded one-piece steel wheel, such as the Ford wheel, needs to be “strengthened” by adding wood to it.
The one-piece all-steel body is the strongest, safest, quietest, most durable body made. That is our only reason for making them.

August 7, 1933

Ford


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony Bennett - Australia on Sunday, October 12, 2008 - 10:04 pm:

To clarify, Ford established it's Australian operation in Geelong in 1925. Taking over from a number of different state agents, they set up in an old wool store building while the new Ford factory was being errected.

For this crossover year, 1925, the standard Australian Ford body was made by Duncan and Fraser, the former state agents in South Australia. Since 1919 it's lines and general style along with the simplicity and strength of it's construction knocks the US Ford bodies into a cocked hat!:-)

Once the new Ford factory was finished, for 1926 they commenced making the style of body that Ford was making the world over, albeit with some timber component. I imagine this would make the lower production volumes in Australia more economical. This would perhaps also satisfy local content or import tarrif laws.

Did the US cars for 1926 & 27 have a body number stamped into the firewall just below the radiator stay rod bracket?

I just learnt that the Australian cars did... and mine is more likely a 26 than 27.

It does have steel doors and wooden floorboard and seat risers. I also heard a rumour that the Australian tourers were more generous in length for greater leg room in the rear???

This picture is an Adelaide built Duncan and Fraser tourer body that would have been assembled by Ford in Geelong. Note concealed door hinges. The fuel tank is also reshaped to be a rectangular wedge shape. This seats you lower in the car while retaining tank volume.



1925


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, October 12, 2008 - 10:12 pm:

James,

Thank you for posting that advertisement. I suspect the ability to oven bake the paint on the all metal body was another reason they switched. And it was not until 1936 or so that Australia produced Fords had the all steel body (ref: http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_display.cfm?release=20344 where it states: "Over the years, Ford introduced many innovations and new technology into the manufacturing and assembly process. In 1936 it was the first Australian manufacturer to replace the wooden body frame with an all-steel frame with the body panels welded to it.")

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By peter kable on Monday, October 13, 2008 - 02:06 am:

Somewhere in my files I have the notes as to the reasons for the timber, but from memory a number of things prompted the wood frames.

First was the time factor, Ford needed to set up the factory in Australia quickly and it was thought that the extra time needed to get the body shop operating would give GM a distinct advantage in price of its products compared to Fords. Holden Body works who GM used to construct their bodies for Chev and Dodge had already hinted they wanted to get the contract to supply Ford with bodies.

Ford Canada thought there would be a problem with this arrangement and turned it down but also needed to get its own bodies built quickly.

As Anthony has said they chose the Duncan and Fraser body with minor alterations ( most noticable being the concealed hinges as compared to the D& F bodies which had a ball shaped hinge about 5/8" in diameter) These bodies were assembled onto Model T's in an old Woolstore previously owned by Dalgety & Co. They are usually now refered to as Dalgety Fords. The photo posted by Anthony is of one of these cars.

Ford was about to release the 26-27 style bodies and it became necessary for Ford to introduce the style at the same time in Australia. Even though we were half way round the world the public whould have known about the new bodied cars and would have been a bit peeved if they again got a poor country cousin.

The Australian government although delighted that Ford was establishing a factory had places tariffs on fully imported bodies making the proposition of fully importing uneconomical. A compromise of allowing the outer panels only to be brought in was agreed upon. If it allowed the full steel bodies in it would then have created a precedent for other companies to also do the same, at the same time costs didn't justify stamping out the panels here.

Only being outer panels meant they were also easier (cheaper) to pack and freight.

Anthony you may have noticed that in the story I wrote for the Echuca Tour book a photo was included of a Dalgety bodied T. Whoever added the photo's to the text mistakenly thought that the body was a original Duncan and Fraser body which it is not. How they did so is a mystery as it was labeled originally as a 1925 Dalgety ?????

The actual photo comes from the newspaper press release issued by Ford in July 25 when they anounced the release of the new Ford assembled Australian Model T. As such the mistake doesn't really matter except someone will see it think that their car is a 1218-24 Duncan and Fraser and be upset when someone points out to them later it isn't especially if they purchased it thinking it is an earlier car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H on Monday, October 13, 2008 - 08:03 pm:

I presume the body number started with the Geelong production as my 26 tourer has A490 stamped into it; they would have surely made more cars than that at the Dalgety site. The historian at the Geelong Ford Museum was able to tell me it was produced during March or April from that number. It's obviously one of the first of the 26 models as it has 30x3.5 wheels; presumably they were using the remnants of the previous year's stock. I saw body number A1515 at Echuca (A1515 is the car on the biscuit tin)...very similar car and it also has 30x3.5's, so I can now be confident in correcting people when they tell me I have the wrong wheels.
I don't know if there's any particular reason for this but apart from these two cars all the 26's I've seen have much higher body numbers and the later features; ie. headlight bar, new fan mount, and balloon tyres. I can only assume there was a change in the rate of production after the Geelong plant was fully established.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Brand on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 03:06 am:

Hap - here's a photo of a 26-27 Runabout side panel with the remains of the wood in it. It appears to be the same as the runabout you posted photos of at the start of this thread.

Andrew.

1926-27 Australian runabout wood framing


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 08:07 am:

Andrew,

I hope this finds you enjoying spring down under. Thank you so much for taking the time to post the seat panel view. From what you and the others have posted, I believe the pictures I originally posted are of a 1926-27 Australian roadster body. Thank you all for helping clarify that.

Would someone let us know where on the firewall we should we look to find the body number on the Australian 1926-27 cars? And approximately how large are the numbers so we have a better idea what we are looking for?

Does anyone know of any other Australian bodied cars in the USA? I’ve been trying to figure out if an Australian produced body might be of interest to folks who visit the Model T Ford Museum. Most folks would not see any difference between the Australian 1926-27 and the USA 1926-27 other than the location of the steering column. But for the Model T folks, I wonder if many of us would enjoy seeing one and being able to see how the body construction was different? Obviously I would – but I tend to like exploring the details more than most folks. And of course a 1909 two lever would be higher up on the list of items folks would like to see in the museum, but is there any interest in the wood framed 1926-27 Australian bodies?

I’m trying to find a good home for this roadster. (It is not even mine – although I’ve tried really hard to rationalize why we need an Australian bodied roadster project when we do not have the time or resources to finish the current projects.) Maybe instead of a speedster or truck raffle to raise money we could do an Australian bodied roadster raffle car? [It has a 1923 Canadian engine and transmission but the rest appears to be 1926-27]. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 06:29 pm:

The body number on Geelong body cars is stamped into the middle of the firewall just below the radiator mounting. The numbers are about 1/4" high. I can take a photo if anyone wants.
One other important thing with the Geelong cars is that being of Canadian origin, there are Robertson screws in various places; steering wheel, terminal block, dash light. The ammeter in my car was locally made in Sydney. There's also the "Made in Australia" plate mounted on the dash...there does not seem to be any "official" location for this as it's in different places on different cars but always seems to be near the dash light.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 04:25 am:

numberterminalsmade_in_auammeter


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 09:58 pm:

John,

Thank you so much for taking the time to post the pictures and the response. It pin points where I need to look to find the body number on the Australian / Geelong produced 1926-27 body. I really like the looks of your 1926 touring car on your profile. Your car has lots of character. Thank you also for reminding me about the Robertson square drive screws – I keep forgetting to look for those as another clue that a car or body has roots in Canada.

Does any one happen to know if the Australian body builders in 1926-27 also used the square drive Robertson screws in the body construction – for example holding the door hinges on? The photos of the body here in the USA appear to have slotted rather than Robertson screws holding the hinges to the body.

Again, thanks to all for helping to add to the information about the additional wood the Australian 1926-27 cars used in the roadster and tourings.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 10:40 pm:

Hap,
All the body construction screws (hinges, anything screwed into the wood, etc) are the standard slotted kind. I have seen one later Geelong car which has Robertson screws along the top of the dash, whereas mine are slotted (you can just see one in the above photo with the dash light). If there's any other photos you'd like, just let me know...the body is completely original and unrestored.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 05:33 pm:

RE Robertson Screws.

It is my understanding that only Ford of Canada used Robertson screws.

The short story: Robertson was a Canadian. He had allowed his invention to be used in Europe (Britain, I think) but the manufacturing licence there was abused, and he withdrew the rights. That put him off human nature.... even Henry Ford. Ford of Canada began using them in 1915, I believe. They were saving upwards of 2 hours a car in assembly with Robertson screws, and Henry wanted to also use them in the US. But he did not want to rely on Robertson's supply of the screws, preferring to manufacture them himself. Robertson would not allow that - once bitten, twice shy.

So, neither the US nor British plants used Robertson screws, but Ford of Canada continued to use them, and they were supplied by Robertson. So I guess there is no reason why Ford of Canada could not, in turn, supply their Australian subsidiary with these screws for use in the manufacture of the locally-built Australian bodies. On the other hand, that may have contravened the Australian government local content requirements.

It would be interesting to learn if a New Zealand-made body (as distinct from a NZ-assembled, Canadian-made body) used slotted or Robertson screws? Does anyone know for sure? An answer might provide a clue about the Ford of Canada supplier theory.

I hope this is of help.

John Stokes
New Zealand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 07:03 pm:

For Peter Kable....
Amongst my material I have a photo of "the first car produced by Ford - Australia" ... a Model T, lots of people, end of the assembly line, possibly not much detail of the car. I think it may have been a Ford publicity shot - possibly the same Ford press release photo you refer to above, printed in the Echuca book? I put it away yonks ago knowing it was no good to my New Zealand project, but could find it and scan it if you thought it would be of help?
John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Norton on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 08:20 pm:

Can't make out the letters in the MADE IN AUSTRALIA plate but possibly similar to [1915] MADE IN CANADA plate?
http://www.mtfca.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=29&post=62632#POST62632


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