What was original under the seat in a 1915 roadster?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2008: What was original under the seat in a 1915 roadster?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Cicciarelli on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 04:57 pm:

Is there supposed to be a wood or metal lid over the gas tank? If wood, would it have been hinged, or just sitting in place? The extra space under the seat behind the tank...was that supposed to be a place for your tools?....because the '15s didn't come with a tool box on the running board originally did they?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 05:34 pm:

Could be either a wood or metal lid under the seat. Ford purchased bodies from several suppliers. Construction varied quite a bit. In most cases there is a small tool storage space behind the gas tank. This part being made of wood, they are sometimes rotted away or missing.

The running board mounted tool boxes were a popular accesory never supplied by Ford. However a tool box can be considered a factory authorized accesory. Ford sent this letter to dealers in mid - 1912:

"The only equipment permitted to be attached to any Ford cars is a robe rail, a clock, and a tool box on the running board. No exhaust cut-outs, trunk racks, bumpers, batteries or other items mentioned in previous letters should be recommended or permitted to be put on Ford cars either by our branches or by our dealers; and, as previously noted, our guarantee will become void if devices of this sort are attached."

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc12.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 06:21 pm:

No batteries permitted by Ford? What was their official explanation for the battery connection and key position on the coil box then?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Sutton on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 06:39 pm:

Cause Henry knew that someday a company called Fun Projects would sell the hot shot kit!

Craig


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 08:06 pm:

Rick-
It depends upon your body maker. If the seat frame is metal, the cover on the gas tank would be metal. If the seat frame is wood, the cover over the gas tank would be wood.

Here is my 1915 runabout with wood cover closed:


And open:



The seat riser on this car is wood and has a V-shaped storage compartment behind the gas tank. You can see my 12 v motorcycle battery nested in there which is used for crank starting on battery and for powering the headlights.

YMMV

: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 08:11 pm:

Here is the metal seat cover on my 1919 touring. You can see the metal frame on the side.



: ^ )

-Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Cicciarelli on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 08:35 pm:

Wow....every day I find something else so very cool about these Ts. :-) Thanks Keith for posting those photos. Very cool. So does anyone know how many companies were making bodies in 1915 and the names of these companies? How does one know who made a particular body...wasn't it the first letter in the body number or something like that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Cicciarelli on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 09:41 pm:

I got this out of the Encyclopedia...so from this, it sounds like the wood covers were only used on touring bodies in 1915, however according to the picture above, and a 1916 I saw with my own eyes, this seems to be somewhat inaccurate....:

Two different lids covered the fuel tank in the runabout and touring bodies; one of wood and the other of steel. The wood covers were used on bodies manufactured by Wilson, and Kahler. These were used on the touring bodies only. The metal covers were used on bodies made by Beaudett, Fisher, Kelsey, and Ford, and was used on touring and runabouts.

Dimensions were 35-7/8 x 16-1/2” (The wood lid was 3/8” thick.) The hole for the gas cap was 4” diameter, located (center) 6-3/8” from the front of the lid. The wood board was made of slats nailed together with two 1-1/4 x 34” strips, 1-1/4 from the front edge and 1-3/4” from the rear, centered between the ends of the boards. Twenty-two #15 x 1” box nails were used to attach the strips. There were two one-inch holes located 3-1/2” from the rear edge and 9-1/2” either side of the center line of the cover. A third hole, 1-1/4” diameter was located 1/8’ from the front edge on the center line of the cover. (From blueprints of this assembly.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Barry W. Fowler on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 10:21 pm:

Keith: Thank you for your information. My 1915 runabout has a wood heal panel ( I believe that is what you call a seat riser) and I have believed that it was wrong. I had been told that all 15s had a metal heal panel/seat riser. Can you provide some more pictures of the seat construction?? Thanks,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Cicciarelli on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 10:47 pm:

The 1916 roadster I got a ride in at Hershey also had a wood seat riser, but the lid was missing.....so then, apparently that bit of information in the Encyclopedia is a bit off then? I would appear that some roadsters were built in 1915 with the wood???......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 07:19 am:

Barry,

Any Model T made after about 1911 should have a metal heel panel. In 1915 these often are stamped with a body maker's initial near the top center. Can you show us a picture of the part you are calling a heel panel?

The different body makers used various structural methods in the parts BEHIND the heel panel and UNDER the seat. The visible parts of the body are all metal except the firewall in 1915.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Barry W. Fowler on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 05:01 pm:

Royce: OK, that was my understanding. My car does not have the metal that you describe, just a wooded frame with a wood panel. There is a metal rim along the top front as shown in Keith's picture. If anyone has an appropriate metal heel panel, I certainly would be interested in purchasing one. It would be good to be correct.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Cicciarelli on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 05:20 pm:

Anyone else have input on the 1915 roadsters coming with the wooden covers over the gas tanks?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 08:46 pm:

Barry,

You may want to do a little more research on the type of body your car has and what type of seat frame it would have before purchasing the front seat heel panel. You can mix and match front seat parts from 1914 to 1925 but the low seat 1922 - 25 parts are not correct for a 1915 (although they will give you more room between you and the steering column). If it is all unknown then I would recommend you pick one body maker style and make the car that way. And there is always the long shot that you car is original. Folks used to throw the 1916 pointy front leaf springs away because they thought they were an aftermarket item. But when someone found a Ford script on one of the leaves that sparked a search in the archives which found information saying they were in fact factory installed for a short time during 1916. (For additional details about that pointy spring see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/5633.html ) Reproduction front seat heel panels for the 1915s with the metal seat frames are available from the vendors. But I don’t know what part you would order for the wood seat frame – i.e. the 1914 or what? I think you will be happier finding a used one that has the proper markings for your car. Was your car rewooded or does it still have the original wood for the seat frame? And if so it might have the body maker markings there.

There were several different style front seat heel panels for the 1915s. And if your car has the rivets showing above the coil box holding the top of the cowl to the front of the cowl, then it probably would not have an embossed letter on the heel panel and it probably would have had an all metal seat frame (that is based on a very small sample size -- so it could easily be proven in accurate -- but so far, I have not found any cars with the rivets in the cowl that also have a letter embossed on the front seat panel.) Ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc15.htm which shares the reason Ford added the note:
JUN 26, 1915 Factory Letter
"Hereafter when ordering body panels for 1915 cars, please give both the car and body numbers. The body number will be found on the right sill just inside the front door. This number will be preceded by a letter which indicates by whom the body was made.
"The above information is necessary as panels for bodies made by our various suppliers vary somewhat."
Some parts/panels do not interchange well. That is also true for bodies made by the same body maker if they switched from wood seat frames to metal seat frames during the 1915 or 1916 or even later production.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 09:24 pm:

Hap -- My March of '15 Touring Car has the riveted cowl, along with the letter H (presumably for Hayes) stamped into the front seat riser, and the wood seat framework. I believe you have pictures of those features.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Barry W. Fowler on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 09:38 pm:

Hap: The car has been re-wooded. I do not recall if it has the riveted cowl. I will check when I return home. Is there any where else to look for the body maker?? It is an original car, but when restored, all new wood was used. I do have the original patent plate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 09:53 pm:

Mike,

Yes, and I even know where those pictures are. It may also turn out that it is Herbert rather than Hayes -- but at this point I have so many possible combinations -- I have tried to only update folks when it looks probable that it should be a different one from the one we originally discussed.

Again thank you for sharing and reminding me that at least one of the riveted cowl body makers did stamp their front seat riser with an "H" I had forgotten that. Your car has a good known history, staying in the same area you grew up in. And while some items have been changed out (your electric tail lamp etc.), you are aware of which ones were original and which have been changed. The pictures of your car are shown below:





[No, the 1915 did not come with two push pull light switches -- one was added for the electric conversion on the tail lamp.]

Thanks for all your help over the years. I think for the Beaudett cars we are making good progress. On some of the others a little progress. And I have not found a Kahler or Kelsey and of course I'm not sure about the Herbert vs Hayes bodies either.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumtet SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 09:57 pm:

Bottom Line Up Front: The information in Bruce McCalley’s “Model T Ford” book used the best available information at the time the book was written. He continues to update that information in his “On line Encyclopedia” and his “Comprehensive Model T Ford Encyclopedia CD” version. As new information is discovered Bruce will gladly add that to the electronic copies. And when the “experts” disagree, he often will share both or several of the prevailing “documented answers” for the reader to ponder. (See the different official dates for the first Canadian engine serial #1 on page 540 of his book “Model T Ford.”)

In the case of the statement about the two body makers using the wooden gas tank covers only on the touring and the other four body makers using metal covers on the tourings and roadsters was taken from the archives. Was it wrong – possibly. Is it correct – possibly, but if so probably only for a limited time period it was written about. Note if covered the period 1915-1922 and not just 1915 or 1916 but 1915 to 1922 see: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/A-B.htm We have some great fossil evidence that Beaudett produced early 1915 cars that had the wooden seat frames and the wooden gas tank covers. We also have great fossil evidence that Wilson produced steel seat framed bodies with metal gas tank lids (see Jim Cooks Ol’ Henry at: http://www.geocities.com/jncsnc/modelt1.html [not specifically covered at his web site but in e-mail correspondence with him, he shared the car had remnants of the steel gas tank cover hinges and the steel gas tank cover had been destroyed from year of the mice going to the rest room on it. But that is the Wilson bodied car that I believe had a metal rather than wood gas tank lid ]. Both of those contradict the archive records as written in the encyclopedia. But there may be additional information in the original archive documents that would clarify why that occurred. Or this may be a case where we will gather additional information that Bruce may want to use to update or offer an additional comment about.

And in response to how many body makers – well one source said 5, another 6, I’ve counted 7 or 8 (it depends if you call the marking on the front seat heel panel a new body maker – i.e. it has an indented “M” and protruding “B” and I don’t know who made that one. Both Monroe, and Beudette are listed a body makers for 1915 and we have samples of front seat heel panels with only a “B” or only an “M” and we don’t know what the story behind the “M&B” is yet. In addition to Monroe and Beaudette, we have Fisher,
Respectfully submitted,

I have much more I would like to share but I need to stop for now.

See also:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/6/109.html

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/7861.html

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/6/1155.html

I’ve been slowly checking the parts listings to look for clues. In the one below from Bruce McCalley's CD, it shows Wilson, Beaudett, and Herbert for cowls 1915-1917. Of course others could also have been ordered but those were listed.



Note the Sep 1, 1923 Price List of Body Parts on page 4 under Torpedo Body Parts listed:

5671X Spring (cushion) for wood frame 1915-16 and 20
8336S Spring (cushion) for metal frame 1917-22

Indicating wood seat frames were offered 1915-1916 and 1920 for the Roadsters.

I would welcome any additional help on tracking down information to help determine how to tell which body maker produced which body and when.

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 10:11 pm:

Barry,

Yes, there are several places to look for a body number and/or body manufacturer letter. See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html which has lots of illustrations on where to look and what they look like.

Thank you for taking the time to check. Often if the car has been rewooded they toss the wood. But sometimes it is saved and you can find the number stamped into the wood or on the metal tag that was saved in the boxes of old wood.

If you post and/or send me some photos I will gladly look at them.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


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