Well, I finally got around to pulling my head off.
I remember sometime last spring someone had a thread up about removing a broken head bolt, possibly with pictures.
So far the only one I can find is:
Does anyone have any suggestions?
All of the headbolts when I pulled them out had a black lube smell to them. The bolt looks as though it has been broken for many years. It is broken Below the deck height. The surface of the break is very rough.
I'll try to post a picture later.
Any help is appreciated so I can try to get the head back on this weekend.
The only way I have been successful removing a bolt broken below the deck is to carefully drill a hole in it nearly the size of the original bolt less the threads. Try not to drill into the threads because the next thing is to use a very small chisel or a punch ground to a beveled point. Then you need to work with a hammer and try to bend the existing bolt toward the center eventually loosening it so you can remove it with a long nose pliars. This must be done very carefully so as not to mess up the block or the threads in the block. After you get the bolt out then use a bottoming tap to clean up the threads.
Don't try to use an "easy out" The bolt is evidently rusted in place and was so tight that it broke off, so an "easy out" will not remove it. If you break an "easy out" it will be almost impossible to get it out.
Some have suggested welding another bolt to the broken one, but with it broken off below the surface, you will probably weld the old bolt into the block, so that method will not work either. If you do get the bolt out and the threads are messed up, you will need to drill larger and tap for a helicoil.
You need the Stevens tool that I use. Has a bushing that fits in the head, drill goes in it, drills out the old bolt, then a tap that cleans out the old threads. Works like a champ each time. Dan.
What is this Stevens tool and where can I get one?
Richard -- Dan's tool sounds good:
What I typed while Dan was posting:
There are lots of ways that have worked for people. The main thing to avoid is breaking an easy out off in the remaining part of the bolt. Usually you only do that once and you decide it is much quicker to drill out the original remaining bolt than to drill out the easy out which is usually much harder than the original bolt.
I would suggest using a reversible drill with the left hand drill bits (available at McMaster-Carr at: http://www.mcmaster.com/ and then search on left hand drill bit as well as other locations). If the bolt is broken off above the surface of the block - feel free to try and use vise grips etc [soak with kroil etc. and take your time] – but do NOT break it off further down. If it still doesn’t come out – grind the top level so you can center punch it. I would then put the head back on and put an insert into the head bolt hole so it would center the drill for me. And drill down. If you are going to take it apart anyway – I would remove the various parts and then place the bare block on a drill press and use that to help drill the bolt out (again using the left hand drill bits – start small and work your way up). It will most likely turn out as you drill more and more of the bolt away. If you happen to hit much of the threads in the block then using the thread repair kit will probably be needed – especially if you are going with the higher compression heads that get torqued down more. (also recommended by several other folks: http://www.reds-headers.com/html/red_s_engine_talk_20.html
If you are handy with welding see: http://idisk.mac.com/forever4/Public/pages/studremoval.htm where they weld and washer and nut to the stud.
And feel free to try an easy out – just be sure you don’t apply too much torque and snap it off. How much torque is too much? A small one will snap off very easily so you will still want a large hole in the bolt even to try the easy out. If you have never played with them – put a bolt in the vise – drill it – and check what you can put on the easy out before it snaps. If you snapped it – that is what I mean about they break a lot easier than I thought they would. If you stop before you break it (good job!) then don’t exceed that torque as you try to back it out. Or feel free to skip the easy out and just use the left hand drill bits centered on the bolt.
Again that is just one of many ways to do it. If you have a friend with an electrical discharge machine – (or something similar to that name) they can work miracles also – but I’ve only known one friend with such a machine and they now 800 miles from here.
Good luck, take your time, and don’t make it harder by breaking off an easy out.
Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout Sumter SC.
If you have access to a wire welder, you can lay a 7/16 nut on the head and wire weld down the middle until you fill up the nut. Don't be afraid of welding into the block as the cast iron will not take the bait. The heat from welding will loosen the bolt and should come out in the first or second try.
Another way is to drill a hole in the broken bolt and use a torques bit a little larger than the hole you drilled. Drive it into the hole like a broach. I makes 6 very neat notches to grip on and it will not expand the fastener like an easy-out will. They also tend not to break off nearly as quick.
Either of these two ways has always worked for me.
In high school, many decades ago, my auto shop teacher had a trick of blowing out the bolt with a cutting torch. The bolt got hot and the oxygen blew it out without melting the block. Cut new treads after.
I have never tried this, and I suggest you try it on a scrap block first.
Although the photos are kind of small, I think you can kind of see which one is giving me the grief. It is the one between the valves on #1.
Thanks you guys for all your advice, and further advice is also appreciated. I don't know if I'll get to get it back together before I have to get back to school but I'll see. I may have to close it up for a couple of weeks until winter break.
I'm intrigued by these drill bushings and welding. On the less aggressive side I have it soaking with PB blaster, in regard to advice from an earlier thread, I still haven't found Kroil yet, so I'll make due with this for now.
Stevens Tool T-200. Have seen them on T-bay. Watch for them at swap meets. Where are you, if close you could bring to my shop and I could fix for you. Will try to post picture after I take one, or email me and I will send you one. Dan
Geez, go knock on doors up and down yer street Richard - someone must have a welder. If there's any pipeline work in your area there should be all sorts of one-ton trucks floating around with welders in the back. Heck, they'd probably do it for free too just for the sake of having a great story to tell at the pub later on. It's a 10 second job if you can find one! Then you'll be back behind the wheel quick!!
Barring that, start dropping hints about what you want for Christmas!!
We do weld, but I was hoping to find a better/easier way.
Also, the head is back on and the insides are pickled. Sprayed some corrosion inhibitor in the chambers so when I get back after finals there wont be any extra surprises lurking in the block for me.
It seems I am leaning toward welding a nut onto it, or drilling it.
To drill it, I'd like to see what this T-200 tool is. If I can't come up with something like that I may try to make up a metal plate to bolt onto the block with the hole centered, or try to pick up a rough head to use for in a similar way.
Now I just have to shake the car out of my head for a couple of weeks until finals are over.
Thanks for all your help
I had the same problem with a broken head bolt back in September. I found a Stevens T-200 on Ebay for $51. It worked like a champ.
If you try drilling it out, see if you can get a left handed bit. Sometimes you get lucky and the bolt backs out during the drilling process.
Your bolt is probably bottomed out in the hole. Otherwise, it would be easy to remove. Here's an idea:
You could reinstall the head using shims around three head bolts to center the holes on the block. Use a bushing in the hole in the head, or perhaps a shim to reduce the diameter to the tap drill size or slightly smaller. Now you have a fixture to center and line up your drill. Drill a short distance, then remove the head and look. If its good proceed. Mark the depth on the drill using other holes in the block. Re-tap the hole.
I was considering maybe buying a junk head to do this with so there is no chance of damaging mine. What would be a fair price to expect to pay?
Go to Harbor Freight and buy a transfer punch set for about $8. Use one that just fits the hole and center punch. If you really want high tech, buy a couple of the small right-angle magnets used for welding. That will hold the punch square to the block while you give it a rap. You'll have a good center then use Ted's method to make sure you drill the hole straight. Or find someone near you with a Cole Drill.
The head I found today is in the below photo? What do you think?
Ken, Those punches might work, and there are a couple of Harbor Freight stores nearby.
Get a fair sized hole drilled all the way through the bolt and stay away from the threads. Heat what's left of the bolt quickly with a very hot torch, get it red if you can. After allowing it to completely air cool, screw it out with a screw driver, EZ out or whatever else you can jam in there without spreading it. I have done many bolts, studs and spark plugs this way. The idea behind this is the same as welding out a bearing race or cylinder liner. The heated bolt cannot expand, and when it cools, shrinks into the hole you made.
If and when you drill the head bolt out be careful not to drill through and into into the block . There is not much clearance between the bottom of the bolt and the block, and there is not much block material between the bottom of the hole and the water jacket.
Drilling through into the water jacket will cause a leaker later on.
Richard,I have heated stuck bolt/studs/nuts to a quick dull red and then held a damp cloth/paper towel and they often suck in the moisture freeing them.I have also heard on here someone used a candle to do the same with the wax.The wire weld/or stick suggestion is also good but there is a paste to use so nothing sticks to the block.I would also use a flat washer under the nut to be welded.Bud.
I decided to try with something similiar to the Stevens tool. Today I ordered up a Renewable Drill bushing which should fit in the bolt hole in the head and serve as a guide to start the drilling. The largest inner diameter I could get was 1/4 inch, but at least I will have a centered hole to start with.
Once the 1/4 inch hole is taken care of then perhaps I can try the left handed bit idea to see if it may back out on its own.
What size tap should I need for the cleaning of the threads at the end of this project? Also, will it will need to be a bottoming tap?
Thanks for all of your help
Richard I am kinda surprised no has suggested a heli coil. The hole in the head is the perfect size for the helicoil drill bit and when its bolted down, is centered over the stud. Just mark the bit so you drill the correct distance down to the bottom of the hole, not into the water jacket. Then remove the head and tap and insert the helicoil Its a good repair and will last a long time.
I don't know what you have against the welding approach. For me it has been the fast sure fire way to do it. I have even removed 10-32 machine screw stubs and stuck pipe plugs in blocks with it.
Les, would you explain the welding approach to me. I'd like to try it someday.
Not to steal from you Les, but I think I can answer the question. Lay a 1/2" washer on the stud, weld the center of it to only the part you want to remove. Then weld a nut to the washer. The heat will also shrink the broken bolt and loosen the rust bond. It should come out easy when your done.
The tap size is 7/16-14. Bottom tap is what I use.
Also clean out the head bolt holes in the head with a 29/64 drill
oops - check the size, I said 1/2",make sure it fits the stud and you don't weld to the block.
Actually it is impossible to weld to the block. The weld will NOT stick to the cast iron. So Tim is right except the washer helps you put a larger nut down so it is easier to fill it with weld. Use LOTS of heat with your arc welder, at least 20-25% more than usual. The object is to put lots of heat into the broken stub and attach something to allow you to put some torque into the stub. As the weld cools (patience here is helpful) apply a wax candle to the stub just as it reaches the temp where it doesn't really smoke anymore. Wax works a great thread lube for this. After you have waxed it up apply a wrench and remove the stub. I have rarely had it go a turn or two and break off again, but always at the surface, so repeat. I have never had this process fail.
Here is the science;
1. Steel weld will NOT stick to cast and cast has lots of thermal mass.
2. By heating the steel stub to red hot in a relatively cold casting the stub is forced to reshape to the size of the hole. This heat breaks the rust if that is the case. If it is jammed at the bottom with carbon and crap (which is likely your problem), the stub will shrink away and relieve all the pressure that is holding it in.
3. The hot candle wax will wick in and lubricate all the contacting surfaces.
Don't wax it too hot as this will cause the wax to coke up and reduce it's effectiveness
Tim, I am thinking about a bolt broken below the deck, like in Richard's situation. Are you saying lay a 7/16" washer over the hole and lay weld down inside the hole until it fills to the level of the washer, then weld a nut to the washer? Don't you risk welding to the block?
Might you be referring to a bolt which snapped off above the deck????
Sorry for the above post. I wrote it before Les's post (but posted it later after recieiving a phone call) and before re reading Dave's post above which also explains the method. My apologies.
After the bolt stub is out, and the hole and threads are well-cleaned, I use studs instead of head bolts, a la Model A. . I snug them down in the block, using a little loctite. . That assures getting all the available threads, with far less chance of stripping.. You may not be able to do this in some cars, depending on clearance from the firewall.
If you use the right length studs, you can cap them with acorn nuts.
Ever think of making you own drill guide? You can take a piece of bolt or rod that fits the hole and drill it in the center in a drill press or a vice. Set it down in on top of your broken bolt and drill it. Helps if you can center punch your broken bolt first. Mac tools also has a kit for drilling bolts and has a splined easy out that fits into the drilled hole wit a hex nut to go over it to turn it with.
There is also astick welding rod called Chronatron. It is used for extracting broken bolts . You stick your rod down against the broken bolt and work your way out slowly . The flux keeps you from welding to the surrounding surface. When you get to the top of the hole, weld agood flat washer to the core you have welded up. Then place a nut on top of the washer, preferably a high nut or tall and weld around it to the washer good. After it cools a little hit it to the tighten position with an air gun and then reverse it and it should back out. We have used this on broken exhaust manifold bolts, head bolts and other bolts on Cat engines with great success. I have seen 1 inch broken and rusted bolts come out of track frames with it. The surprising thing is when you get them out there is sometimes only a 1/4 to 3/8 spindle of weld so the hole does not need to be completely filled. If you ever get a chance try it on some other item with a broken bolt to see what you think of it. It is a little spendy but sure saves time.
Richard, I go along with Les on the method he suggested. I have used this many times even on aluminum blocks and heads and it has always worked. Sometimes I've had to re weld a couple times, also helps to spray a good penatrate as the weld cools as the heat will draw it in like solder. Good luck, Keith B
Thanks for all of your suggestions and comments.
Maybe the next time I'll try the welding method.
Although I agree with studs being a great choice for a strong fastener, I'd like to keep the engine looking as standard as possible.
I went for the store bought bushing hoping to get as precise a piece as I could. If I were to try to make my own there is a good shot it may come out slightly off. This way the tolerances were pretty tight and I couldn't have asked for something better.
Today I started the work on this job. I slid the drill bushing into the head and started drilling. I was able to punch through the bolt with the 1/4" drill bit and it looks as though the bolt never quite reached the bottom of the hole. I don't know if these bolts do bottom or not, but if so, I am thinking the bolt got cross threaded at some time. I began to try an easy out, but it felt like it had little chance of survival on this job at this point.
On a side note, I noticed that all of my head bolt holes are filled with some sort of grime and will need to be cleaned before I put the bolts back in.
The bushing gave me a nice hole down the center of the broken bolt and tomorrow I'll start to enlarge it. Hopefully by the end of the day the motor will have 15 head bolts back in it.
The head bolts should not bottom out in the block. If they do they will not torque the head correctly and may bust out into the water jacket.
"Although I agree with studs being a great choice for a strong fastener, I'd like to keep the engine looking as standard as possible."
To each his own priorities.
The problem w/studs is that they rust between the stud and the block. Sure the nuts will come off easily but then try and get the head off. All it takes is one stud rust-welded to the head to give major problems in trying to get the head off.
BTDT too many times.
Oops, I meant that the studs rust between the stud and the head.
I like your "originalish" 15 touring, I would keep the engine looking as original as possible too.
Many firewalls will not permit removing the head over studs.
I use Model A long studs to hold the Fronty head, and just move the firewall out of the way. If your car is in the way, you can remove the nuts and washers, and use jam nuts to remove the studs. It's a small extra step.
I don't understand studs rusting where bolts wouldn't?
Studs allow you to grab the full length of the hole in the block without straining the threads or anything. Model A studs are SAE on top, so I reduced the torque by 20%. . Dunno if the short Model A studs are the right length for a T.
Jeff, Thanks for the compliment I like your coupe too.
Tonight my Dad and I finished the drilling and pulled the remnants of the bolt out. Now I'm up to cleaning the bolt holes of the black gunk in them. I've cleaned the holes and traced the treads with a tap on about half of the holes. Hopefully tommorow I'll have the head back on, and then I can plan for the next project: the mounting blocks in the frame.
What should the head bolts be torqued down to? Anything I should watch out for on reinstalling the head. I plan on putting the never run copper gasket back into it.
On another note with the head off, I noticed one piston had a 3 stamped on it (in the no. 1 hole) and another had an x stammped on it. The deck had an X and a B stamped in the center near the coolant passages. What to these stampings mean?
Thanks for all the help and advice. I'll try to post a couple pictures of this tommorow. The drill bushing and a slow progression of drill bits followed by an easy out was a fairly easy process and I am very happy with the results.
Prior to installing the head determine the correct head bolt length and inspect the condition of the head mating surface and the spot faces for the bolt heads. The head bolts should not bottom out in the hole, about .2" extra hole depth should be safe. Put your head bolts on the head and measure how much of the threads stick out, they must be shorter than the threaded depth of the hole in the block. Obviously, the more the grip length the better. If the head mating surface has a lot of imperfections it may not seal. Also the spot faces on the top of the head should be flat. I had an automotive machine shop clean up both areas for around $60.
Clean out the bolt holes in the head with a 29/62 drill.
Spray copper head gasket sealant on both sides of the head gasket.
Tighten the head bolts starting from the center of the head working towards the edges and ends in a couple of iterations, torquing to around 15 ftlbs, repeat to 25 ft lbs, and repeat up to a final torque range of 35-50 ftlbs. Run engnine, let cool and check the torque again.
I do not know what the markings on your pistons mean.
The "never fail" easy, easy, easy, method. Listen to Les. Center a 1/2 inch nut over the hole. Use any kind of metal weight to keep the nut from moving. Use a cracker box stick welder, placing the stick straight down the hole and weld until the nut is full. The nut and bolt will be red hot by this time. After it cools, screw out the nut and attached broken bolt. Keep these to show your friends how simple it really is.
Just remember that last half turn as you torque the head down is putting twisting, galling strain on that old cast iron.
Lubing the threads just messes up the torque setting and makes them more likely to back out.
If you use studs, OTOH, they only need to be snugged in to bottoming. The pull from the nuts on top will be just a straight, static pull.
Henry used bolts, no doubt because studs and nuts would have slowed production and cost more. The A and other modren Fords use studs. . The new ones use one-time bolts, due to cost of labor.
If some yokel points out, "YOU used studs!" you can just say you're preserving that old iron.
I have a question about using studs. I have read a number of times that when you use studs you can't get the head off in "some models" due to the rear head/stud/firewall proximity.
Would't that proximity be the same for all T's in any given production year regardless of which body was used? I always thought firewall evolution was a function of passing years, but in any given year of production all were the same (acknowledging that there is no clean break between year models). So, it may be that the head removal problem created by the use of studs is a function of productioin year, not model (body type).
Anyhow, just wondering....
Well, today I'm going to set the head on and torque it down. I have everything cleaned up and I'm all set. I am going to use the torque range from a previous thread of between 45-55 lb-ft.
As I said earlier, the next thing I would like to move onto is getting the motor mounted correctly. I purchased new hardware to go through the frame and wooden block. I have 2 long bolts and 2 short bolts. There are two bolts already in the wooden block sticking up through the frame. As of now, the motor is cocked to one sided with one bolt through the passenger ear, and the driver ear sitting on the bolt.
Any recommendations on how to move the motor best to set the hole over the bolt?
The drill bushing in the hole.
The remnants of the bolt on an EZ out.
Success! 15 holes 15 bolts!
Thanks for all of your advice along the way.
Richard, check out the thread "Crankcase arm wooden blocks"
There is a diagram in there that shows the installation positions of the wooden blocks and the bolts, etc.
I know that Richards situation has been resolved, but I had to deal with one today and decided to take step by step photos. Hopefully it will help someone in the future. Here's the link: http://modeltengine.com/brokenheadstud.htm
Tim,They say a picture is worth a thousand words so the video should be priceless!Another pluss of the video is if duck scatt holds anyone can do it.Actually,the best weld is the one that does the job the cheapest so its perfect! Thanks for the video and link! Bud.