1915 side curtains

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2008: 1915 side curtains
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 11:49 pm:

Hey guys,
The patterns for my 1919 touring car side curtains are coming right along. However I'm thinking if I'm going to do one, I might as well do another. So, I will be making side curtains for my 1915 runabout as well.

I have all the attachment methods and points located for the touring car, however, I'm not sure about the 1915.

Can anybody post pictures of how side curtains fit on/around the front bow/windshield on a 1915? I'll need views from both inside and out if possible.

Thanks to Keith, Fred, Kirk, Noel, John and Hal who have sent me design ideas for my touring!

Thanks
-Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 12:07 am:

Keith -- The pre-'17 curtains had clips which attached them to the windshield posts. There was a thread with drawings of them a year or two ago, it may not be accessible now. I made some clips for my '15 curtains from steel strapping and coated them with liquid rubber like you use for tool handles, then sewed them to the curtains.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 12:22 am:

Mike-
I have repro clips that go onto the side of the windshield. I need to understand where/how the Murphy fasteners attach onto the front bow on the inside, in relation to the top strap, etc.
The top has the windbreaker on the underside of the front bow, as is correct for 1915.

-Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 12:25 am:

I'll take some pics of mine and send them to you tomorrow.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 06:02 pm:

Tomorrow? Oh well, I've been busy. Here are a couple of pics of the curtains on my '15 Touring.

curtain

ditto

Fred Houston loaned me a set of very old curtains to use as patterns. I had some made to match, but with larger clear areas for better vision. I wasn't sure how it was going to work out at the front by the top strap, so I had some notches put there to clear the straps. The notches are not necessary the way I ended up mounting the curtains, so pretend they're not there. I used three windshield clips per side, as you can see in the first pic.. The curtains do a nice job of keeping the rain and cold out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 11:43 pm:

Mike-
Thanks mike. Tell me about the windshield clips. Were those original? On my 1919 I have the hooks that mount on the windshield hinge screws. There is a grommet in the side curtain (actually a female common sense fastener)that gets hung on the hook. Here is a side curtain that belongs to a friend on my 1919. The notch is where his mirror is placed. I looked at a different set of faithful reproductions. Although they had the "window trim," they had no "edge trim." There is a snap onto the top windbreaker.

Anyway, tell me more about the clips. Are they original for 1915? Can I make some? Does anybody have any? Did the 1915 not use the little hooks like I have pictured? How 'bout some of you other 1915 owners???

: ^ )

Keith



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 08:04 am:

Keith and Mike,

I too would like to know more about what type of fasteners were used on the 1915-16. I don’t have anything definitive to point to, just some items which I will gladly share.

Murray Fahnestock in the reprint “The Model T FordOwner” specifically mentions the fasteners that Mike shows. Below is from page 157.


And the explanation was found on page 159 shown below.



But, many of the items in “Model T Ford Owner” are aftermarket accessories. In fact most probably are and he obtained revenue from them advertising in the magazines. Base on that I’m 80% sure that the clips shown were aftermarket accessories.

Disclaimer, there were lots of different top makers, and therefore side curtain makers that supplied Ford and the numerous branch assembly plants throughout the world. Just about anything probably could have occurred on a test basis (that is documented for the 10,000 electric horns tested on the 1915s, different timers, etc). And there is still lots to discover (such as John Regan’s brother’s pointy 1916 springs – that turned out to be supplied originally by Ford and were not aftermarket as originally thought by many folks).

In Bruce McCalley’s book “Model T Ford” on page 284-285 he shows the top from a very meticulously restored 1920 touring. He states, “The top and side curtains are exact copies of the originals, using the originals as patterns. The placement of the fasteners, tacks, etc., may be used as a guide for the restoration of Ford touring cars from 1915 through 1922.” Yes, he said “GUIDE” not “Judging Standard.” But that car appears to use the Lang’s part numbers 7831T – curved style like (Keith’s not like Mike’s) for the middle windshield (35 cents) and 7831B “small bend and points straight forward (similar to curve style), attaches side curtain where windshield post meets the cowl (also 35 cents). Lang’s catalog has “2 per car” and lists them for 1915-1922 for both of those style of curtain hooks. I believe both of those styles are shown on the car in Bruce’s book on page 284-285. But it is extremely difficult to see the Lang’s part 7831B in the photos of the car. I believe that part is mounted on the front bolt holding the windshield frame bracket to the body. But I have not found any good photo clearly showing that. I believe the photos on page 284-285 support that, but it isn’t as clear as I would like to find one. I’ve looked in the past a the Rip Van Winkle pictures (a 1917) and I don’t see the clips. The same for the 1917 pre-production photo on page 253 – I’ve zoomed in and cannot see any clips (of course the side lamp would hide the lower one). And I looked at many other pictures -- they don't show up or I'm missing them (I have ordered new glasses). From memory, when I looked at Bruce’s price list of parts one of those clips used the same number as Lang’s but the other clip used a slightly different number. But that is from memory – and that isn’t as reliable as checking.

Note, on a very small sample size of one – I didn’t find any evidence of either style clip on our unrestored 1918. I’m not surprised the clip is not there – it could have easily been broken off over the years. But I didn’t see any remains under the bolt heads – so either the bolts were removed and item taken off or perhaps they were not there originally?

So yes, if anyone can add some clarity to this, it would be greatly appreciated.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 11:56 am:

The pre-1917 windshields didn't have the screws at the bottom support to hold the "fingers" for the curtains, so they used the clips as shown in the pic posted above by Hap. I've never seen any original clips, but am told that's how they were. I used the Fahnestock pic as a guide when making my clips. I used 3/4" wide steel strapping, then coated them with rubber like you use on tool handles. Three per side are enough; the curtain fits behind the windshield and there's no draft there. (At least no more than enywhere else. :-) )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 12:09 pm:

Yes, I know how to spell anywhere. Gonna have to fire my proofreader. (Or pay him more.)

I've not ridden in a '17-'22 car with curtains installed, but it seems to me that they would be quite drafty around the windshield. The "finger" hooks hold the curtain in front of the windshield, so it seems the wind (and rain) would be funneled right into the curtain and the car. So the pre-'17 system might work better, but I expect Ford saved a penny per car by using the later arrangement.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 12:44 am:

Hap-
Here is a picture of the 1920 touring from Bruce's book. The bottom hook is on the windshield stantion carriage bolt that is on the trailing side, that is, the back bolt. NOT the front bolt. For cars with side lights, it would be almost impossible to have the hook on the front bolt. I looked at the side curtains and took a few pictures of them, too. As I had mentioned earlier, they only have trim around the windows, not on any of the edges.



I have noticed on old pictures, it is difficult to determine the location, or even the existence of side curtain hooks.

If any of you guys have original cars, let us know your side curtain hook configutations. Especially you guys with 1915s and 1916s, original or not!

: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 09:38 am:

Keith,

Thank you so much for posting that picture. I have been trying to figure out which bolt of the windshield frame the clip went on. At this point I don't have the time to find my notes about those two different clips. I will look them up and post what I find or don't find either way. My guess (and it is just a guess) at this point is that the clips shown in the "Ford Owner" post above were aftermarket accessory clips and not used by Ford from the factory. But it would be really nice if that could be determined what was typically used. I would guess that the 1915-early 1917 windshield brackets with the revits, they would have only had the lower hook held on by the windshield bracket bolt and the upper hook held on by the windshield hinge.

Mike -- do you have any information in addition to the "Ford Owner" article that those clips may have been used originally rather than as an after market item? And as shared above -- we are trying to figure this one out -- and Ford could and often did do things more than one way.

Note the Jan 26, 1915 factory photo on page 68 of Clymer’s book “Henry’s Wonderful Model T Ford” may help solve this question. Or it may add to the mystery. Below is a cropped scan so hopefully we aren’t violating any copyright laws etc. If so – let me know and I will not use very small parts of pictures either.





In the red area above, I believe there is the curved Lang’s part # 7831T shown on the top screw holding the lower windshield bracket to the windshield frame.

Unfortunately I cannot really see if there is a Lang’s part #7831B on the rear bolt that holds the windshield bracket to the body.



But above is the negative number (2386 I think) of the picture. I would recommend that one of us who still has some pull with Santa needs to ask for one more Christmas present. Such as a high resolution copy from the Benson Ford Archives and take a look to see if that Lang’s # 7831B is visible there, not clear, or clearly not there. This far into the production – they are not going to remove the bolt to add the bracket – it should either be there or not be there. Let me know if you want me to ask my Santa or not (of course I am a little overdrawn already….) but it is for a good cause.

And FYI – the picture also shows those early headlamps – post mounted but with the larger body and the headlight plug off center and lower rather than coming out the center of the bullet back.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 11:36 pm:

Keith and Mike,

Some additional information from Bruce McCalley’s “Price List of Parts” (available at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/mccalley.htm ) has the following listed:




Note that the "B" added to the factory number often would indicate a redesign of the part.
The "R" usually indicates for replacement and not current use on the assembly line.

And a little further down in his pages:




Note that the curtain to body hook (T7832) is listed for different years depending on what section of the price list we are reviewing. In one case it appears that hook on the lower windshield bracket was on all the open cars 1915 to 1927. In that case -- I would think many folks would have seen them and have them on their cars. Anyone have one on their roadster or touring?

I think contacting Lang's and asking if they know if their 7831T and 7831B are constructed to the factory drawings 7831 and 7932 might help – or it might add yet additional questions.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 06:03 am:

Here is a picture from 1916, showing a fairly new Ford with the rear left curtain on: http://www.shorpy.com/node/5126?size=_original
Perhaps the front curtains blew off due to a bad fastening system ;-)
..or it may just have been a nice day in the spring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 06:26 am:

Roger,

Thank you for pointing out the photo. If it was just a little more in focus or closer I think we could see the T7831 on the windshield hinge bolts (if it was there). It looks like they took both the front side curtains as well as the rear side curtain off. I wonder if the car might be left running and the vibration is causing the slight out of focus? It also has a cover over the hood and radiator. Photos like that are excellent for this project. Thank you.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 08:09 am:

I would like to say thank you to Keith for sending me a link which shows a 1915-16 restored roadster. It has what I believe was one of the methods Ford used for the side curtain hooks – one under the windshield to body bracket and one under the top screw head of the lower windshield hinge. I hope over time we may be able to verify if that was the typical arrangement for the 1915 – early 1917 cars with the riveted windshield to body bracket or if that was one of several methods used. I don’t think there is enough information displayed in this thread to support a clear cut “typical” configuration yet. We would appreciate additional photos from a similar angle especially original period photos or photos of original cars etc.

Below is a cropped view from the photo link at: http://lh4.ggpht.com/_5qWgT_URnqY/SG1X_Cou8BI/AAAAAAAAD6I/G4Gk8hocsAM/51460023.jpg which gives a great angle for viewing those windshield clips.



If anyone else can share some photos or point us to some links for photos that show that area that would be greatly appreciated. Also if anyone has some additional photos of the Rip Van Winkle Ford – I would love to see if those clips are visible or if they are clearly not there. The photos of the Rip Van Winkle Ford I have been reviewing (pages 261 – 274 in Bruce McCalley’s book “Model T Ford”) are not that clear to me for that area. Sometimes I think the clips are clearly not shown as in the cropped photo below from page 27 of the May - Jun 1991 "Vintage Ford":



Other times I think I might see something like in the picture below. Look at the lower windshield to body bracket. Is that hook or just a reflection? I think it is probably just a reflection as it does not look like the correct shape for the T-7832 hook. (From page 21 of the May-Jun 1991 "Vintage Ford") But a better picture of that area or someone who can look at the car could answer that question easily.



So any additional information to help clarify or even muddy the waters more would be welcomed.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Friday, December 19, 2008 - 10:49 pm:

Here's my '15 touring. This side curtain installation is not original in detail, but it works very well. I think the right door rod is from a 26 / 27 T. I drove it all the way to down town Cincinnati and back in a snow storm a couple years ago for the season opener Reds game, visibility was quite adequate.


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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, December 20, 2008 - 12:08 am:

Hap:

The Rip Van Winkle Ford has a June 1917 motor serial number. It originally appeared in a 24 page article in the Sept-Oct. 1978 edition of Vintage Ford. The car is shown on the front cover - there are no clips. (Also, on page 26 there is a clear side view of the passenger side windshield hinge. Again, no clip.)

My unrestored roadster has a May 1917 serial number. No clips.

My father's 1917 touring, which he purchased from the original family in 1949 in unrestored condition comparable to that of the Rip Van Winkle Ford, has a July 1917 motor serial number and does not have clips. My dad also has the original side curtains for this car.

All three cars above most likely were assembled at the Minneapolis assembly plant (the original owners resided in or near the following Minnesota towns: Center City, Cokato, and Buffalo, respectively).

Erik Johnson
Minneapolis, MN


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Saturday, December 20, 2008 - 02:39 am:

Erik-
If there are no windshield clips on your Dad's 1917 touring, how are the side curtains attached?
Does the side curtain have the eyelets along the front where the clips would be? Or is there another way they were attached? If the cars were from Minnesota, I'd expect that the side curtains would have been used!

I'd love to see some pictures of the side curtains and how the were attached on your Dad's 1917 touring.

-Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Mortensen on Saturday, December 20, 2008 - 08:38 am:

There are 2 straps on each front side curtain on on my '17 (which Erik and his dad came out to see when I first got it home). One strap goes around the the top strap where it hooks on the windshield, the other goes around the side lamp mount.

These are repros made by Sheri and Mark Cameron who are sticklers for building to Ford prints. Erik can confirm this method or, if his dad's '17 is set up differently, I'm sure he'll describe the method used there.

My asssuption, and it's only an assumption, is that this was the method used at least through the oval top iron era. There is a definite advantage to switching to the clips for practical purposes both for speed of setup and to mitigate the "draft" factor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, December 20, 2008 - 01:56 pm:

Keith -

As Warren states above, straps are used.

Regarding pictures: I finally bought a digital camera last Tuesday. I haven't taken it out of the box yet. If I figure out how to use it, I'll take some pictures of my dad's side curtains and post them.

Erik Johnson
Minneapolis, MN


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, December 20, 2008 - 11:14 pm:

Who would have ever thought it was that hard to figure out how the 1915-early 1917 open cars secured their side curtains to the front of the windshield? Wow!

Eric – thank you for posting the additional information. I hadn’t thought about looking on the cover of the magazine – that picture is one of the best of the Rip Van Winkle car. I cannot see any hooks on the windshield hinges or the windshield to body brackets in that photo which is shown below. But the side lamp is hiding the forward most bolt head on windshield to body bracket so there might be one hidden behind the light – I cannot tell in that picture one way or the other about the front bolt.



But in one of the other photos it does not appear to have a hook on that bolt either.

Eric & Warren – thank you both for clarifying that it was a strap used on your car rather than hooks. That clarification is a lot easier than trying to “zoom in” on a photo that may or may not show the area very well. Thank you for taking the time to help us figure out what Ford was using during that time.

Eric – you will have the digital camera down in no time. I cheated, I asked my daughter to show me how to work it and the one we have is easy. But I’m glad she did the initial set up on the computer so all I had to do was take the photos and connect the camera to the computer and then click “down load.” Sort of like having my Dad start the T when it was cold and then coming behind him to restart it once it was already warmed up.

Keith shared some additional links for photos – but the three or four unrestored cars did not appear to have the hooks.

Royce – thank you so much for posting your photos. I notice on your car that it does have the hooks and that the hook on the windshield to body bracket is on the forward most bolt which is often covered by the side lamp in many pictures. Do you have any information on how long it probably was there? I.e. from the beginning or do you know if a previous owner added it? I know on my cars I can only go back 50 or so years and before that we don’t really know what the other owners did.

Again thank you to everyone that has been helping us. I like what Bruce shared on page 264 of his book about the seat upholstery in the Rip Van Winkle Ford, “Upholstery details varied from car to car, and over the years, but this is how it was done on this car in June of 1917.” Perhaps that also applies to the way the side curtains were done?

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 09:37 am:

Hap,

No idea when the hooks found their way on to the bolts. The '15 touring has been in our family around 40 years. Somebody (we don't know who) repainted it and reupholstered it and installed the top and side curtains before that time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 01:23 pm:

Under the for what it is worth category I went out and did some eyeball to eyeball with the area in question on my 15 Roadster.

First, my top had naturally been replaced and replaced with no provisions for fasteners. This top was changed in the 1950's.

I can find one Murphy type fastener on the vertical top iron about midway up/down. No other fasteners or patched holes for fasteners anywhere to be found.

The windshield shows no provisions at all for 'hooks'. All of the washers under the mounting screws are exactly the same, no broken off tabs.

This means absolutely nothing...but that is the state of the state for one car in existance that I have always felt is pretty true to original.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 05:11 pm:

I took some pictures of my August 20th 1916 touring side curtains. They are very old curtains that came with the car when I bought it. the windshiled post are still the 15 style rivited type. There are two straps on the front that form a circle.

A115 two straps

116 Upper Strap

I drew a chalk line around the snaps so you could see them better. The upper one has the murphey fastner. The strap went around and then snaps back on itself.

|image{A117 Lower Strap}

This is the lower strap. It also makes a circle and snaps back on itself. Note the lower one is a snap not a Murphey Fastner.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 05:14 pm:

I will try a picture of the lower strap again????

A117 Lower Stap


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 11:11 pm:

Dave, George, and Royce,

Thank you all for adding to the information. Does anyone have access to a Ford Price list of Parts between Nov 1919 and May 1920? I did some more checking and I did not find any 7831 or 7832 hooks in the Apr 1918 Price list of parts or the Nov 1919 Price list of parts. The next copy I have access to is the May 1920 Price list of parts which had them listed and has them listed as fitting 1915-20.

I wonder if they were actually introduced with the 1920 Model year and were listed as fitting 1915-1920 with the idea that if you ordered new side curtains you were going to get the kind that used the hook rather than the straps? Just a thought. If we could check the factory drawing for those parts it should give an indication if they were drawn up in time for use on the 1915 cars or if they were drawn up around the introduction of the 1920 model year. Again that is ONLY A GUESS but based on the “fossil evidence” that may have happened. Or Ford may have used both types (with the strap and no hooks as well as without the strap and with hooks). And the part number may be hidden somewhere else in the earlier price list of parts and I over looked it.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 12:03 am:

Hap:

I mentioned this thread to my father yesterday and he brought up a very good point; the lower strap on the front side curtains only works if the car has sidelights as the strap goes around the sidelight bracket.

1919 and forward starter/generator roadsters and tourings were not factory equipped with kerosene lights. Therefore, the hooks would have been required to properly fasten the side curtains. The hooks were most likely introduced in the 1919 model year and the side curtains were probably redesigned accordingly (i.e. the straps were eliminated).

To elaborate on what Warren Mortenson above, Mark and Shari Cameron are probably your best resource as to what is correct for the 1915 through 1918 model years.

Erik Johnson
Minneapolis, MN


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 07:50 am:

For Erik,

I think your Dad added the additional clue that we needed. The introduction of the starter to the open cars would have removed the part they tied the strap to.

I have not had the opportunity to meet most of the folks on the forum and I have also not had the opportunity to meet Mark and Shari Cameron. I would suspect you mean the Mark and Shari Cameron who run Cameron Restorations – http://www.brassera.com/index.htm If it is a different Mark and Shari please let us know.

For Keith,

Would you like to contact Mark and Shari or would you prefer I contact them. They probably don’t need to be bothered by both of us. I would suspect they could either quickly answer the question (Did the 1915-1919 non-starter cars use only the straps for the front side curtain to windshield, or only the hooks, or were both used?) If it was only for the 1915-1919 non-starter cars, then we will also need to let Bruce know so he can add that to his Comprehensive Model T CD. I.e. even thought the Nov 1919 Price List of Parts has 1915-1919 for both hooks, the actually dates of uses would be introduced 1919 to 1922. And a note to the vendors so they have the option of updating that information the next time they reprint their catalogs would be a nice thing to do also. And we will add a note at the end of this thread. Just let me know if you plan to contact them or if you would prefer I do that.

Again thank you to everyone in helping to run this one down (or at least I think we are getting close to a good answer.)

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Mortensen on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 08:57 am:

Yep, that's the Mark & Sheri we're talking about.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 12:12 pm:

Mark and Sheri probably have the most original restored '15 around, and they do top and upholstery work too, so I'll bet you will get some good answers from them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 01:16 am:

Okay boys and girls, I just got an e-mail form Mark & Sheri Cameron, who are the gurus of side curtains. Mark has done some magnificent restorations and they pay very close attention to details.

On cars from 1915-1919, the side curtains used two straps on the front curtain for attachment. One strap goes through the hinge and has a button snap, the other goes around the lamp and has a murphy fastener. Mark believes the hooks came during 1920 when starters were first offered on open cars.

We will post some pictures soon.

Thank you Mark and Sheri solving this missing side curtain hook mystery!

-Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 07:35 am:

Keith,

Thanks so much for running that one to ground.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford Touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend, Gresham, Orygun on Wednesday, December 24, 2008 - 09:24 pm:

I spent some time on the MTFCI website in the Parts manuals. I found some interesting information, but of course, a few more questions.

1915-1919 manuals list p/n 6925X Touring Car curtain to windshield strap assembly
1915-1919 manuals list p/n 3754X Touring Car curtain to lamp strap assembly
1913-1922 manuals list p/n 3754X Touring Car curtain glove fastener assembly
1914-1917 manuals list p/n 6829AX Touring car Duquesne clip upper
1915-1917 manuals list p/n 6830AX Touring Car Duquesne clip lower
1918 manual lists p/n 6830BX Touring Car Extension support lower
1920 manual lists p/n 6829 BX Touring Car extension upper

Finally, in the 1920 manual p/n 7831X Curtain to windshield hook appears.

1920 manual list p/n 7832X Curtain to body hook
1920-1922 manuals lists p/n 4981X Touring car top visor

The 1922 manual has the page for Touring Car top missing!

It seems the Duquesne clips used from 1914-1917 were replaced with the extension supports in 1918 (both upper and lower)

Celluloid curtains are .015” thick

So that begets the questions:
1) What is a Duquesne clip?
2) What are the upper and lower extensions that replaced the Duquesne clips?
3) What is a glove fastener?

Side curtain hooks appeared in 1920, but the later manuals date them from 1915 on.

: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 10:16 am:

Don't know what a Dusquene is...

Glove Fasteners are what we Americans refer to as 'SNAPS', and some others refer to as 'DOTS'.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 06:41 pm:

The Duquesne clips are steel "eye" forgings that are riveted to the front upright bow sockets. The pins on the front socket and the rear upright socket slip into these "eyes" when the top is folder. Here's scan. The Duquesne clip is to the left of the female bow spacer on the lower side. Pretty dark but maybe you can make it out: Duquesne clip


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