Titles and Registrations - a RANT

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2008: Titles and Registrations - a RANT
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 04:27 pm:

I have taken part in several car shows, and there is almost always at least one "T-Bucket" there.

Every one of them registered as a 1923 Model T, and I'm told that all T-Buckets are considered 1923's.

On two occasions, with two different T-Buckets, I have crawled all over and under them, and I can't find any single part on them that is remotely a Model T part.

The closest they get is that the seat backs, which are Fiberglass, are shaped a lot like the seat backs on my Model T.

HOW do they get away with that??

And why do we Model T owners not complain to both the car show judges and the DMV's??

It seems to me that these homemade illegitimate rigs make a mockery of antique vehicles as a hobby.

Your thoughts??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 04:41 pm:

They have their hobby, we have ours. As long as no actual Model T parts are harmed in the process I don't see a problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 04:47 pm:

The problem in Missouri is that they put Historic Vehicle plates on street rods (instead of Street Rod plates, which are also available in Missouri) and then are exempt from inspections, despite the fact that they are driving essentially modern, very high-powered automobiles.

As far as car shows, many are organized by people that really don't know much about old cars. I've been in one show the past two years where "judging" was by popular vote of the public, and both years the Best of Show award went to a replica Model A on a Pinto drivetrain and chassis. The owner enters it in the show as a Model A and no one knows any better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 05:56 pm:

I am not big on car shows. I like the joy of driving my cars.....much more than sitting around waiting for someone to judge my car who knows very little about what they are looking at.
It ticks me off when people come up and ask if my car is a "Kit Car". I will support a car show where all the profit goes to a good cause. By that....I don't mean some organizer who is hungry on lining his pockets at my expense.
Besides, where is the justice in all the work it takes to clean and polish our antique "driver" when the car next to yours is only a "show" car and is never driven.
Our cars were meant to be driven and enjoyed. It's like a double edged sword....I am happy that so many car bodies and fenders are being duplicated from fiberglass/steel vice using original steel for the hot rod group. However, because of this...at a glance...you no-longer know if what you are looking at is a restored original or a money pit look-a-like fiberglass copy with late model running gear.
Bottom line....to each his/her own, there is room for all!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 06:29 pm:

Years ago I drove a Model A from Los Angeles to San Francisco and about 25 of them were driven from New York to San Francisco. The cars were judged, and the only ones that won any prizes except for the one driven the farthest were from the local area and were trailered in. Those cars were "show cars" They were restored beyond the original Ford specifications. Every stitch on top and upholstery had to be perfect and the bead down the center of each tire had to be intact! The sand pits were ground off the engines and they were polished and waxed like a mirror.

I decided that day, not to enter my cars in judging.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 07:58 pm:

Peter
"How do they get away with that??" It's easy in most states.
Have you ever noticed advertisements for "Automobile Titles" for sale?
You can buy a title to a scrapped vehicle (usually comes with a bill of sale) and use it to title your "assembled" car in most states, never having to produce the vehicle for inspection.
I once built a 1929 Model A Phaeton Street Rod (the only thing original Model A was the horn) and using a purchased New York title from a similar car titled it as a 1929 Phaeton in the state of Massachusetts. I did have to pay a penalty for not having changed the title to my name soon after the date of the Bill of Sale, but that was easier than explaining.
During annual inspections I had to attach the front antique license plate with ty-raps to pass.
Go figure.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 08:10 pm:

This is all interesting but here is one that will piss you off even more...

I have a friend (fellow Cable TV person) that sold his bucket truck to people that could not produce a SS card. The truck that they were buying was to be taxed $348.00 at the DMV in Texas. When these folks (yes ethnic background) could not produce a SS card the DMV waived the fee.

So I who has a SS card, indicating that I pay taxes has to pay more taxes because I am legal. Thouse that are here illegaly do not. How is this even a bit fare? I am not saying we should gather them all up and ship them back, estimates of 15 million are here ilegally and it would cost far too much to do so. Further I am not suggesting I burn crosses, but at the very least... give them a freakin SS card, have them pay taxes and then their welcome to be my neighbor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chuck Hoffman on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 08:36 pm:

Well, I was a street rodder long before I was a T restorer. I like them all, although I don't advocate tearing up a nice original to make a rod. There are individuals circumventing the DMV regs in every catagory (frequently by necessity)and it makes it hard for all of us as DMV tries to plug the loopholes. However, trying to force tightening up on rodders will ultimately come back and bite the restorers in some way. Unfair as it seems, I think it's better to grin and bear it rather than bring more attention to it. Boyd Coddington has already brought a lot of unwanted attention toward all of us.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pep C. Strebeck on Sunday, December 21, 2008 - 10:37 pm:

The same thing frosts me as well.

We work hard to keep our cars as original as possible, and I look at my 1920 year of manufacture plates as a badge of honor. For some it is just easier to buy a piece of paper. I don't begrudge them for having a hot rod, quite the opposite more power to them, I just don't like them running original plates when there is obviously nothing original on the car.

There is one gentleman, he and I sometimes show up at the same little shows, the only original 1927 part on his '27 T is the license plate, not even a matched set front and back. Big blown 350, modern frame, tube steel axles, fiberglass body, etc., etc. and so on. I think the oldest part on the car, other than the driver, is about 10 years old. Yet, this car is titled and licensed as a 1927 model T. I enjoy parking next to him so I can point out all of the marvelous changes and advancements that were made at Ford in just seven short years: The use of fiberglass body panels, fuel injection, four-wheel disc brakes, satellite radio, and the like. The scary thing is that people believe me about these "changes" and I have to point out the fact that I am only joking.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jkcallin on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 12:04 am:

I have never understood why this bothers some people to such a degree. So What!! How does this diminish you or your car(s)?? How does it affect the pleasure that you get from your car(s)?? The guy with the "T" bucket is not trying to steal anyones glory. He has built or bought the car that makes him happy and has registered it with the DMV following the rules (usually) that the state has put in place. Enjoy your car, I'm sure the rodder is having fun while you sit and grumble about nothing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 12:32 am:

First I'd like to say I'm not a car show guy. I've got an old 23 TT that my wife and I load up in on a nice day and try to find a low traveled road and go for a nice leisurely cruise and can't wait for my grand kids to get old enough to go with us. I "model T" by the hour not by the mile. The car shows in my area are all geared toward hot rods,which is fine with me. Most of those model t bodies have been recycled for years. It's possible they saved them from the crusher years ago. Don't you guys remember the bucket t song by the Beach Boys or Jan and Dean
or whoever over four decades ago? A good share of them are fiberglass anyway. Everyone around here is into the 50' and 60's stuff. I would guess the scrap drives of WW ll probably did away with the greatest share of them. I'm actually surprised how many have survived over the years. It just makes me want to take extra good care of my old truck and preserve it for future generations. Just one man's opinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 01:09 am:

John,

I like your statement "I "model T" by the hour not by the mile". I have always told the Hot Roders that question me as to why anyone would want to drive a stock Model T that "Not only do you get to see the flowers on the side of the road but you also get to watch them grow". They usually give me a blank stare.......

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By EDWARD R LEVY on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 01:24 am:

CARS,FOOD TASTES,SPORTS LOYALTIES, ETC, ITS ALL ABOUT DIVERSITY . THE FACT THAT WE ARE NOT IN AGREEMENT AND CAN REMAIN CIVIL ON THESE ISSUES IS I THINK A POSITIVE NOTE.
EDWARD R. LEVY


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 01:49 am:

Edward,

You are right. There is a local hot rod club that has a weekly drive in at a local hamburger joint. I drive one of my stock T's over and join them about once a month. While I am busy looking at the well done Rods, Mustangs and Vet's there is always a crowd around my car. Everyone has fun and we all enjoy the cars and have a good time. Several of the old timers have told me that their interest in these cars started with watching their fathers or grandfathers try to get a little more out of the old T Ford. To each his own.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Mortensen on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 07:25 am:

Some of the best outside help we had while putting on the Annual Tour for the MTFCI in Park Rapids, MN in 1999 was from the local street rod club. Same disease, just a different manifestation.

A lot of the street rods that I've seen were saved from the crusher after some antique car enthusiast decided the project was too much bother. But I do cringe every time I hear of someone taking a perfectly good antique car and rodding it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne in Malvern, PA on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 11:09 am:

I can appreciate quality workmanship whether its a well-done rod or a well-restored classic/antique, and I enjoy looking at both at a show or tour. My cars are mostly drivers, but I actually enjoy the process of getting them ready for a show. The part I like the best at a show or tour though is talking to people about the cars. Whether its a technical question, historical, or philosophical car people, or the people that come to look at them, tend to be a pretty good bunch of folks. And for every idiot at the DMV, there's one like the State Patrolman who posted here a couple weeks ago looking for information on a Model T for registration.

My father-in-law never could get used to paying to be the entertainment at a car show though...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 03:33 pm:

I think that the real reason that most people pass these off as "antique" cars has been missed.
I my state, if a person builds a "hot rod" and goes to get a tag he will have two problems.

1. If this "Rod" is made in say 2008, that will be the year of manufacture. Therefore, he will have to have a Title for said car and that car will be taxed at the value of a 2008 whatever. He will have a hard time getting a title for a car built in his backyard. And he will not want to pay taxes on a 2008 when he can claim it is a 1923 T and only have to buy one tag ever for it.

2. If this rod is going to be titled as a 2008, it will have to pass 2008 EPA and safty standards. We all know that will never happen.

I think that the main reason that this goes on is money. And of course people love to think that they are pulling something off, even if it ruins things for the rest of us. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jkcallin on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 05:44 pm:

even if it ruins things for the rest of us. Dan

How is it being "ruined for the rest of us"? I don't get it. People have been registering and driving modified and homebuilt cars since the begining. Where did Henry's first car come from? All of this whining is based on old car purist snobs, looking down their noses at hot rodders. "How dare these Philistines call that car a Model "T"!! I spent years restoring my car and they come along and ruin it for me!"
Skiers hate snowboarders, Dresser guys hate choppers, ricers hate domestics, drifters hate NASCAR, and on and on and on. Enjoy your hobby and let the other guy do the same. If you have a bitch, take it to the DMV. They are, ultimately, the ones that are allowing this travesty to take place and the, subsequent, ruination of your life.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 06:07 pm:

Somehow the original post in this thread has been altered to be anti-street rod. The point was not that the existence of street rods is bad, it was that they are not Model T's. Missouri even has both "Historic Vehicle" and "Street Rod" plates. The problem with putting HV plates on a street rod is that there is then never any state inspection of what is essentially a modern, high-powered automobile. Wait until the first time a street rod with historic plates is racing down the street and runs over a small child. Then watch the legislators jump on the bandwagon to make us get our cars inspected every year, or to get historic vehicles off the road (since they think that's what it is), or whatever other looney tunes idea they come up with.

It's an abuse of a privilege. It may not harm each of us directly, but it harms all of us when people apply the law the way they choose to apply it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jkcallin on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 07:32 pm:

It seems to me that these homemade illegitimate rigs make a mockery of antique vehicles as a hobby.
Direct quote from the original post. Anti street rod? Absolutely!

Every one of them registered as a 1923 Model T, and I'm told that all T-Buckets are considered 1923's.
No, they are not. What you were told is wrong, but even if it is correct, so what?

On two occasions, with two different T-Buckets, I have crawled all over and under them, and I can't find any single part on them that is remotely a Model T part.

The closest they get is that the seat backs, which are Fiberglass, are shaped a lot like the seat backs on my Model T.

HOW do they get away with that??
Ask the DMV and stop blaming the rodders for having too much fun.

And why do we Model T owners not complain to both the car show judges and the DMV's??
What shows do you enter that judge stock cars and street rods in the same catagory? Again, get out of the lawn chair and go gripe at the DMV.

As to the mockery issue, yes, these guys are spending countless hours and, in many cases, well over 6 figures just to make a mockery of the antique vehicle hobby.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By aaron griffey on Monday, December 22, 2008 - 11:34 pm:

This all came up a couple of years ago and one poster explained that a plastic car that looks like a model A gets licensed as a model A because if there is ever an APB or the likes on the car the police will know what to look for, whereas what it realy is does not describe the car. He said it makes it easier for law enforcement, etc.
The historic plates or year of manufacture plates on a car built 10 years ago out of new parts is what I don't understand.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Tuesday, December 23, 2008 - 01:03 am:


Screw shows, screw judges.
When I take my car to a show, it's because I'm looking for someplace to DRIVE it.
I never submit it for judging, it's got rust holes in the running boards, dings in the fenders, scratches in the paint and since this picture was taken, I've repainted the bumpers and the radiator shell with chrome paint cause I'm too cheap to replate them and I don't care what other's think of it!
It has a "Hopped-Up (Model T engine) in it with a 12V alternator and starter and a few other (small) modifications.
I draw the line with making ANY modifications that can't be returned to show room stock with a wrench.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Pringle on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 11:48 pm:

My house was built in 1858 and some one has ruined it by adding all kinds of modern doohickeys like running water,electricity and even a FIBERGLASS bathtub.I am going to yank out all these things that ruin the originality of this old house.How do people get away with making houses non original?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 12:35 pm:

When I was on the Holiday Motor Excursion this past weekend, I'll bet 1% of the cars there had illegal license plates on them, and we are talking about real old car guys. Someday, one of them is going to get caught, and it's going to mess up things for those who bother to license their car correctly each year.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Potter on Monday, January 19, 2009 - 07:18 pm:

I understand the gripe but many people who build buckets out of fiberglass do so because they cannot find and original body in decent enough shape to put on their car and they leave the REALLY good parts for you restoration guys.
I myself am in the process of building a rat rod T-Bucket but not a "Hot Rod" version as I plan on using a 2.3 four cylinder engine. The body will be fiberglass but I am using the original radiator shell from a '23 and the Ignition/Amp panel from a '26 as well as the I-beam axle from a '35 Ford V-8.
Is it an original Model-T? No but it does have some original components and I will likely add more original components to the car as I find them but I am not destroying a restorable roadster so I can have my ride. My two cents.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J. Iversen on Tuesday, January 20, 2009 - 12:54 am:

The rod/original debates will accompany this forum to the end. The only thing I've ever read in these threads that has made a lick of sense, to me, is the voice of John Callin repeatedly asking, as Jack Nickelson, in the absurd movie MARS ATTACK--Shortly before an alien hand appearing to be offered in a handshake of peace, transformed itself into a curious detaching apendage that skilfully skewered Nickelson through the heart--"Can't we all just get along?" My most trusted friend would like to put two banks of cylinders in my model Ts while I'd prefer his A's breathed on only four. He's unmovably right of my middle to mostly left, after recent events. But long ago, on a continent far away, in a world where daily events could become so bleak that the brain could only process them in something confusingly short of Kodak color, it dawned on us that there are issues that are simply not worth the wind.


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