RM Auction Model F

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2008: RM Auction Model F
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome R. Hoffman, Hays KS on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 03:52 pm:

I was poking around, came across this, nice pictures. Way out of my price range. Jerry

Model F


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 06:29 pm:

Jerry
Wow that is a nice car and I have been a really good boy this year!! Heck I have sold a car, an airplane, and a hanger.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 06:46 pm:

What a beautiful automobile.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 08:19 pm:

Looks like a candidate for Rob Heyen's stable!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome R. Hoffman, Hays KS on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 11:37 pm:

Mike, That's what I thought.....lol I'll be buying a lotto ticket for the next few weeks. I think that would make a great car to go to coffee and donuts on my days off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Thursday, December 25, 2008 - 11:49 pm:

Certainly not trying to be critical of such a beautiful car, but would the top have been originally designed to basically do away with the ability to use the back seat in the down position?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Edward R. Levy on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 12:04 am:

A really interesting looking car. I wonder how many of that model survive. Anyone know?
Edward R. Levy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 01:38 am:

Was the engine really under the hood? The picture here shows a flange ring for the starting crank under the seat. I just saw a model C Ford from 1904. It was set up like the picture of the F. I mean with the hood out front. The engine was under the seat and the hood hid the gas tank. Also I believe the model A came out in 1903 not 1904 as stated in the ad for the model F.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Dodd on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 02:04 am:

In reply to John Berch's question about the top, I don't know about that car but on a Nash Metropolitan Convertible when you put the top down you loose the rear seat and only have use of the front seat.

Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Alongi on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 08:54 am:

Beautiful, It appears the top was put down from the front & not laid over the rear top bows which would be normal (lazy).

Alex


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 10:20 am:

I can't tell from the picture, but the way the top has been put down reminds me of a Cadillac Touring a T friend and I saw at the Museum of Transport in St. Louis County. The top was down and the back seat inaccessible. As the two of us were commenting on that, we realized that the top had been put down incorrectly, i.e. the point fastened to the side of the front seat had not been "walked" back to a point farther back. Looking at this picture, it appears that the front bow would rest right on the others if the piece attached to the front seat were moved back to join the other ones. All conjecture on my part, of course....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 11:05 am:

My mistake, I know nothing about early tops. I've only seen them in pictures in the "up position" and never thought about all the unhooking and walking back involved. The only rag-top I've ever owned was a 62 Rambler American and it was a "little" different.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Mortensen on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 11:40 am:

The engine is under the seat per Models A & C. The F was simply an improved version of these cars. Gas tank is under the hood just like the C. Looonnng trip to the radiator from the motor.

Cadillac and Olds had similar designs, often call at "French front" in some circles. Gives the impression of a front mount engine which was becoming the standard while simply dressing up the existing models.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 12:33 pm:

It is things like this ad that get wrong information out. Wouldn't a firm that is selling an important item such as this have someone at least look under the hood before writing up the description! Think of some student who is writing a paper who might come upon this misinformation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 12:36 pm:

I just revisited the site at the link in the first post on this thread and found the "other" pics of the car. Click on the numbers beneath the first pic to see several more. What a beautiful piece of history it is! There can't be very many of these still around.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Watson on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 02:32 pm:

We now know where Dick Williams Model F went to after being sold at Pebble Beach---Does anyone know who is the Present Owner of the Towncar he had, that was sold at the same auction? It has never been seen since.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 02:42 pm:

"The engine is under the seat per Models A & C. The F was simply an improved version of these cars. Gas tank is under the hood just like the C. Looonnng trip to the radiator from the motor."

"Cadillac and Olds had similar designs, often call at "French front" in some circles. Gives the impression of a front mount engine which was becoming the standard while simply dressing up the existing models."

Boy, I dunno if I would want to invest in a model that was largely obsolete at the time it was built. Hmmm, guess that applies to the T, too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 03:17 pm:

Hey come on Rick! What about the steam cars, the Franklin had a big faux radiator grill and was air cooled and even the VW beetle. Who's to say it should be known as a "hood".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 03:28 pm:

Wilkinson, the Franklin designer, left in disgust in 1925 when they gave it a false radiator to look more like other cars. They always called it a hood front, not a radiator.

Except for some boats and ships, all engines are aircooled anyhow. Franklin called theirs "Direct aircooling."

Here's a late neighbor's 1919 Franklin, with the so-called Renault hood.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 03:44 pm:

I actually like that one better than the huge Mack truck looking grill of the later years. Using your rationale, I guess you could say ALL engines are indirectly air cooled. Is he trying to keep the headlights fresh? Neat pic,thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By hugh chalmers on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 05:52 pm:

It is real easy to ruin a nice top by putting it down this way, it puts way too much strain on it. unfortunately the people that advertise it really haven't a clue. The engine is under the center of the car. The Williams cars are all beautiful, it is a great show car although in the west we don't use early fords for touring for obvious design defiencies. there is only one out here that performs well but he had to make some changes to make it run dependably. Ford didn't seem to get his act together for a long time. You think he would have noticed the Buicks and Reos flying by him at the time


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 06:10 pm:

I have a friend of mine up here in Ontario who has a 1903 Ford A and it goes like a cut cat.It is a very correct car and very little if anything is modified from original.Although my 1905 car is not a Ford,it is a similar engine configuration as the F on the RM site.This type of engine is a fairly good design and the 2 cyl opposed motors do run very well.
If everything is restored correctly and set up properly,these cars perform very well.Mine does,mind you I put 450+ hours into the whole drive train restoration.
One of the reasons the early Fords scoot along well is the fact they're a fairly light car.Mine is rated at 12 HP and it has to move 1300+ lbs of car.I don't think many of the the early 2 cyl Fords weigh over 1000 lbs,but I'm not 100% certain.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 06:25 pm:

Darren, is that the Ontario Model A that has been in the same family since 1903? If so, we stayed at the same hotel at the 2003 event in Dearborn, and the car was on the parking lot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Evan Mason on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 11:24 pm:

The Model F has the two cyl. fore and aft engine under the body. One of the flaws is that the valves are located under the cylinders and the cam is under the crank. To keep the crank and rods in oil you can end up with a near constant flow out of the lifters. Under the hood is the radiator, the gas tank and a secondary radiator lined up in that order. However the gas tank being solid (for obvious reasons LOL!) blocks air flow out of the first radiator and restricts flow into the second. Recently I was able to ride in a freshly rebuilt Model F runabout, lots of fun and would make 40+MPH. This particular car had seals installed on the cam and lifters.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 10:16 am:

Mike, I heard that :-). I would love such a car, however once thd settlement was reached, I'd only have half of my other cars, and half of the building to keep them in.

I've come to the conclusion that my two "perfect cars" to own would be a Ford Model B (larger, four cylinder car, and rarest of the Fords), and a two lever, preferably 1908 build Model T.

Of course, it's always fun to dream.

Happy Holidays,

Rob

below are photos of Model F (I 'm not sure why they label the F a 1909), and the ultra rare Model B.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daren J Wallace on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 10:38 am:

Dick, The 1903 Ford that you asked about I don't think is the one my friend owns.The one you know about sounds very interesting though.I do know of another one,and this is the photo I have of it.
Is this the one you know about? I have met the owner of this car on a 2005 tour driving my 1905 Queen.The car is here in Ontario.It seems to me this one has some family history to it too possibly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 10:51 am:

Darren, unless there are two with the same license plate, that's it. Here's a picture I took in Dearborn. My recollection is vague, but I think the owner's grandfather or great-grandfather bought it new.

03 a


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 11:16 am:

I was in Dearborn at the centennial and remember seeing the 1903 Ford that had been in the same family since new.I don't think that this is the same car. The car I remember talking to the owner about was on display with an original picture of the car blown up on the front seat showing the car when it was new. Any how that car was not restored at the time. Perhaps it has been restored since?
Anyone know?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 08:51 pm:

1. Yes, a beautifully restored car. And while the average USA, CA, AU, NZ, etc. would not put it up there with Niagara Falls or a beautiful sunset, many of us reading this forum enjoy seeing an antique car – especially a Ford. So thank you Jerome for initially posting the link.

2. Non-paid advertisement: For any of us who received cash, checks, etc. from their Santa and would like a great reference book about the early Fords. Check out, “Pate’s Early Ford Automobile Encyclopedia.” See: http://www.earlyfordcars.info/ It offers over 500 pages covering the 1903-1909 Model A, (AC), B, C, F, K, N, R, S Runabout, S Roadster, and early Model T Fords. It also comes with a DVD with over 2,500 files including copies of:

2.a. The owner’s manual titled: “How to run the ‘Ford’” originally included in the Model A, B, C, F, K, & N&R [S is not included but is identical to the Model R]

2.b. Trent’s “Finder’s Guide” [which cross references most of the known Model N, R & S factory drawings & their general location, back to the included 1908 Model N, R, S & SR Price List of Parts – very helpful for locating NRS factory drawings at the Benson Ford Archives],

2.c. Copies of the price list of parts for all those same Model A to 1909 Ts

2.d. Lots of pictures, appropriate sections of original literature and magazines etc.

2.e. For the two cylinder cars, Carl maintains a registry and provides the number of known cars (not their owners but in the case of museums – the names and locations. Obviously it does not include all existing cars -- as he only includes the cars that he can track by engine serial number (fly wheel number). And of course some cars may be in a museum or collection which he is not aware of or that may not want their car included in the registry. And some cars that are better classified as replicas are not included in the listing (such as one that was listed on e-bay in 2005. It apparently had very few if any pre 1906 parts on the car and the engine was probably a 1920s stationary or possibly marine engine that used many Model T Ford parts in its construction.) See page 20 of chapter 13. In the appendix he has an expanded listing which includes all the Pre-T Fords where he includes any known car of the early makes including those that the serial number is not known but the car is believed to still exist. For example Carl has information listed in his appendix for 40 Model F Fords. Again, if someone has or knows of an early Ford, please send that information to Carl and he will include the car information in any future updates.


2.f. I am obviously biased as I really like the topic and I’ve had the privilege of reading a lot of the book already. Be sure to note the cut off date – it stops with the 1909 Model T Ford. Do not purchase it for details about the 1910 – 1927 Fords (although the patent section does contain some patents that Ford continued to use in the production of the Model T Ford.)

2.g. It is a great effort by a large number of folks contributing information about the early cars. And if you have or know of additional information – Carl is already collecting information to include in a future revision and/or update to the DVD.

3. Dick, Darren, and Herb – I don’t know if the Model A with the number 145 license tag is or is not the one Dick and Herb saw at the Centennial. The one shown above appears restored to me. But the same car is also shown on page 43 of 91 in Chapter 6 of Carl’s book. And on the next page he has a period picture of the car from 1903. The car is facing to the left and what appears to be a building with a garage double door is behind the car. Four occupants, a female owner and driver, a man in the passenger seat next to her and two other ladies wearing fancy hats in the back seat. And yes, it notes that thee car has been in the same family since new. It even has the serial number from the flywheel of the engine. While not every car the book covers includes the engine serial number (flywheel number for the two-cylinder cars), many of them do. The book specifically covers the evolution of the Model A 8 hp car, the Model A 10hp car (often called AC by modern restorers but not by Ford originally), the Model C, and the Model F. What was changed and approximately when. How the Model A 8 hp and 10 hp were sold during the same time period etc.
is that detailed, the items in the book are great for seeing the changes in items over time.

4. Edward – reference your question of how many have survived? See the number Carl has located in para 2.c. above.

5. Dick – yes, you are correct that the top bows of the Model F were the two-man top – just as the early two man Model T Tops prior to 1922 (1920 Canadian), the front bows would be disconnected from the front body irons and walked to the rear and attached to the rear top bows for folding. (ref page 83of 91 chap 6 Carl’s book). Below is an illustration from the Ford catalog shows the Model F with the top down. (From Bruce McCalley's on line books & pamphlets. See the link on the MTFCA home page on the left hand side. Bruce has several 1903-1909 items loaded.)



6. Rick (rdr) – your comment, “Boy, I dunno if I would want to invest in a model that was largely obsolete at the time it was built. Hmmm, guess that applies to the T, too.” While probably mostly in jest, your comment reminds me of what “Consumer Reports” sometimes says in the annual car issue about a new model. “New or redesigned models that have insufficient data to include in our reliability ratings…” followed by a list of those cars. And I didn’t find it in the issue I just looked at but they used to say something along the lines of “…in general we usually recommend the consumer not purchase an entirely new model until the reliability ratings can be established and any potential problem areas corrected.” So in the case of 1905 – the Model F was a good reliability bet – as Ford had been improving on it for the past two years. It really was a better car than the original 1903 version. And if you look on page 22 of Bruce McCalley’s book “Model T Ford” you will find a humorous to us but serious back then letter from Mr. Briggs to Mr. Ford dated Sep 19, 1906. Mr. Briggs describes how he ran a Ford Model C 10,000 miles the previous year and was extremely pleased with the car’s performance and reliability. And how disappointed he was with the reliability of the Model N he had recently purchased and was planning to sell. And how the Model C he previously owned was a better hill climber than his Model N. [Note a very small sample size of one – but written when both cars were relatively new.] So purchasing the car during the middle or latter part of production sometimes provides a more reliable car. In the case of the Model N – Ford made corrections and changes that improved the performance and reliability over the very earliest Model N cars.

7. And as far as reliability the two cylinder Fords were some of the better cars during the turn of the century. And like the other 1927 and earlier Fords all require more maintenance and attention than the new 2008/9 models. But they do not require any computer diagnostics for a tune up. Carl also has a short couple of paragraphs about his ride in a 1904 Cadillac and the Cadillac owner’s ride in Carl’s 1903 Ford. According to that ride report, the two cylinder Ford is much smother with less vibration than the one cylinder Cadillac. Note in 1903 the Ford actually sold for $50 more than the Cadillac and according to the figures on page 139 of one of Automobile Quarterly’s really nice books (ok – I lost the reference but I still have the Xeroxed page. The Library disposed of the book! If anyone recognized the “Calendar Year Production: 1896 to Date by James J. Bradley and Richard M. Langworth” please let me know the title of the book. It was good book. Not that much on the early Fords but still a good reference.) Ford outsold Cadillac by just a few cars with Ford in second place and Cadillac in third. For 1904 Cadillac was number 2 selling over 700 more cars than Ford who was number 4 that calendar year. For1905 Cadillac was number 2 and Ford was number 4. And from 1906 on Ford was number one in sales while Cadillac was number 2 that year and stayed in the top 10 until 1916.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 09:10 pm:

Hap,

3. I took the picture on the parking lot of the Dearborn Inn on June 18, 2003, so it is definitely the one I saw at the Ford Centennial.

5. Thanks. I thought that might be the same case as the Cadillac Touring I saw at the museum.

Dick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Otto Baron on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 09:43 pm:

Actually, the way the top was lowered in the auction photo was ideal, if you were transporting your mother in law. First she'd get in, then you'd lower the top. It was also a much safer way to transport children or pets. No worry's about them getting out when the vehicle was in mnotion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 12:27 am:

I think it is not uncommon (is that a double negative) to lower the top this way to keep the lowered top from obstructing the driver's view to the rear (the top is much lower this way, as opposed to moving the top to the rear postition). I also agree this is more stressful for the material and bows.

Hap, does Carlton's book have much info on the Model B? It is the lowest production Ford made in the early years.

Thanks as always for your great research,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 12:41 am:

testing a word document (I tried to go to test forums, but no success).

application/mswordModel B info
In 1904 the Model B was introduced.doc (92.2 k)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 12:45 am:

Model F:

application/msword
First production model after the Model C was the Model F.doc (119.8 k)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 01:01 am:

I think our hobby would be pretty boring if none of us collected obsolete cars. That pretty much covers every machine made in the industrial age.

By definition any automobile is obsolete the day it is built.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim morsher on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 01:04 am:

hap, on your point #3 , FOMOCO did refer to the model A 10 horsepower as the model A-C ...... i have an original parts catalog that specifies parts for both models ..... i have seen this myth mentioned many times, most recently in pates book. he may even have that parts book in his included disc, but i was unable to open it with my limited computer skills. best, tim m.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 01:31 am:

I am intrigued by T predecessors (if you can't tell). The Model A, then C and AC set the tone (captured market share, and made money). Then, the Model F was a continuation of the A/AC/C (two cylinder, efficient, light, and reasonably priced).

The Model B really jumps out to me, because early on it was a four cylinder, enclosed drive train car, and shows many features that evolved into the NRS Fords, ultimately to the Model T.

When you look at competitors, Ford came from "no where" to being a leading manufacturer, to "creating their own market" with the Model T.

Great stuff.

Happy Holidays,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 12:57 pm:

I spent some time with Lewis Rector when he was restoring the Model B that is now in the Towe museum in Sacramento and have seen the reproduction engine that Mr. Henry in Oregon is building. IMHO, it was a poor design and should never have been put on the market. The engine is made up of complicated castings and as far as Lewis could determine, never did run as well as Ford had thought it would. There is a reason very few Model B's survive. I'm not sure, but I think Ford actually bought many of them back.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 02:19 pm:

1905 Ford ad on ebay.1905 Ford ad


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Schell on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 07:11 pm:

Great website on the model F
www.modelf.info


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 08:47 pm:

Rob,

1. This thread has “morphed” a little since the original “Hey take a look at the neat Model F that’s up for auction.” But I’ll try and answer your question, “does Carlton's book have much info on the Model B?” I think the answer is both “no and yes.” No there is not a lot in Carl Pate’s book on the Model B. But compared to other sources that I am aware of, it has a lot.

2. Some information in his book and DVD is easily available in other locations—for example –

2.a. The Model B sales brochure is also available on-line at Bruce McCalley’s “book area” see: http://mtfca.com/books/bookmenu.htm as well as Bruce’s CD “Ford, the First Six Years” http://mtfca.com/encyclo/mccalley.htm

2.b. Bruce McCalley’s CD “Ford, the First Six Years” and Carl’s DVD both contain Trent’s “Early Ford Data Base” which indicates approximately 500 Model B Cars were probably sold and shipped. Trent’s listing also has where approximately 1/4 of the production was originally shipped and when shipped.

3. While other items are unique to Carl’s book and DVD such as:

3.a. The 31 page owner’s manual “Instructions on Model B Ford” 1905 edition.

3.b. The “B” price list of parts included in the 1905 Model C, B, & F Price List of Parts (no pictures of the parts but they were not included in the original price list either).

3.c. A spreadsheet of the same “B” price list of parts that can be easily searched and that hopefully in the future will be able to add some of the Dodge Brother part numbers along with the original Ford part numbers (Carl has added those for the Model A – but not the others yet).

3.d. Horseless Age Vol 14 no 11 Sep 14, 1904 “Ford Four Cylinder Touring Car” page 253-257. An copy of the original Horseless Age article about the Model B. (Basically a “How Great it is article.”

3.e. While not nearly as comprehensive as the other models, Carl still has as many photos as he could locate of the individual parts/areas of the “B”. For example when he discusses water pumps he shows all the water pumps for all models including the “B.” But the “B” is not covered when running boards are addressed – they didn’t have a good picture/information for it. Overall, it is still the most pictures and information I have seen about the Model B in one place. And in some cases the same picture will be used more than once for the Model B – i.e. the pedals are discussed in one section while the steering flange mounting and spark and gas lever rods are discussed in another section and the same photo is repeated with a different explanation. Not near as nice as having a good example of the car to look at, but much better than a picture of the car with someone sitting in it and you cannot see the parts you want to see.

4. Carl wrote the book not to be a “definitive end” but rather to spark discussion, bring additional cars and people out of the wood work, and to bring additional information to light. So if anyone has any additional Model B or other 1909 and early Ford information – please let Carl, Bruce, and others know. That could help prevent if from being lost by mistake if anything ever happened to you or if there was a catastrophe event at your location. The Ford Archives lost a lot of information to a fire once. Having the information in different locations and especially having it placed on DVDs etc. so it can be distributed so economically is a great way to ensure it survives for others to use in the future.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 11:03 pm:

Tim,

1. Thank you so much for taking the time to add that correction – that you had seen Ford use the term AC to refer to the 10hp Model A bodied cars. It helped me know where to look and I did find a reference to AC in the “Price List of Parts for Models C, B, and F” which is included on the DVD with Carl’s book. It is mentioned in the first couple of pages before the actual parts listing begins.

2. But perhaps the term AC was used by Ford after the cars were all sold? If you have any additional information about other locations you have seen Ford use the AC term please let us know. Some additional information and thoughts about that:

2.a. Trent Boggess in his “Early Ford Database” Sep 10, 1997 introduction page three states, “Today, cars with serial numbers between 650 and 1700 are considered to be Model “AC” cars. However, the “AC” models are not specifically identified, as such in the Ford Motor Company’s accounts receivable records.” Note Trent was careful to say “AC was not mentioned in the accounts receivable records” that he reviewed to create his database and did NOT use a broader term such as Ford documents. [Based on the “Price List of Parts for Models C, B, and F” it may turn out that the AC began with 670 or a few numbers later rather than 650 – but that is yet one more question for the future.]

2.b. So far the 1905 ish price list of parts that has the Model F parts listed in it is the only Ford refence I have found that does specifically mention A, AC, and C clearly. And if you hadn’t suggested looking there I never would have – so again thank you so much for pointing us in that direction. However, I don’t own a two-cylinder Ford and I have very little information on them so there could easily be or not be other Ford documents that use the term AC for the Model A Body with the 10 hp engine.

2.c. The 1904 price list of parts specifically addresses some of the parts that were different for the 10 hp engine cars (fly wheel etc) and the reference to those 10 hp parts applying to cars 670 and above (actually it says 650 but on the intro to the parts list is has a correction saying the note that says 650 should actually say 670). But I did not find anywhere in the 1904 version the term AC used.

2.d. Carl in his book shares several different advertisements for the two-cylinder Fords. If I recall correctly (that is a dangerous assumption) none of them ever used the term “AC” in the advertisements. From memory I believe I read in Carl’s book that was done because both the 8 hp and 10 hp cars were sometimes being produced and sold at the same time. But I could have remembered that wrong and I don’t have time to look it up tonight. The photos are not searchable. And the copies of the original advertisements are inserted as photos/illustrations rather than text. One other nice feature of the book – those advertisements and other pictures are included on the DVD so you can zoom in and usually see details better than the picture in the book.

3. For sure we need to let Carl know that at least one Price List of Parts does use the term AC. And I will send him a note about that. And if we can add any additional clarification to that it would be even better. I.e. if we find other Ford documents or advertisements that also use AC. Or if we could confirm that we can only find the single 1905 Price List of Parts that would also be helpful.

4. Note, for opening Carl’s DVD that he includes with the book. I already have Adobe reader 8 loaded on my computer. The first time I loaded the DVD into the DVD reader the computer ask “how do you want to open these files or something like that.” I replied as files (not a video etc.) and after than I just double click folder and then the file name that I want and they open in Adobe Reader 8 for me. I have to be careful to put it into my DVD reader and not my CD reader or it will not work. And I downloaded the files to my computer so I would not have to keep waiting on the DVD.

5. Again, thanks to everyone for helping to add to our knowledge and documentation about the early cars.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 11:44 pm:

I have the ad shown above, as part of a book of early ads I found at an antique shop.

Found these in my archive:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim morsher on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 03:17 am:

the ford issued parts list that i have has a printing date of 1908 , and page 3 clearly states that cars numbered up to 670 were model A, autos numbered from 670-2570 were model AC and C, and autos numbering above 2570 were model F. ford was a very small advertiser in the trade magazines, compared to other companies, and if an advert. for an AC hasn't been found by now, it is unlikely it ever will be. ................the model F that is mentioned as being auctioned is a very nice car. very detailed photos were taken by dave dunlavy and can be seen on the EARLY FORD REGISTRY website, listed as " GROOTERS F " ( $10 a year to join, and well worth the money ) i especially like the short radiator on this one, as i feel it gives a better look. there is not much rhyme or reason as to why some had bigger radiators, as the serial numbers don't show it as being a later improvement. but, that points to what some would see as a problem, trying to make these cars "correct" ...... we often forget that for the first many years, these cars were built one at a time on a pair of sawhorses. they are all custom built, with some dimensions not being off by fractions of an inch, but by inches ! what didn't work today was adjusted tomorrow. the early models used mostly square nuts and bolts, with hex bolts and nuts appearing on the model K and N about 1906..... lockwashers? no such thing! to me, that is the charm. these are high maintanence cars, if you drive them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 03:32 pm:

I agree with Tim. All of these cars are high maintenance.I've cursed mine many times,and a problem usually occurs when others are present.They run their best when you're alone with them.However,when properly set up,and running,there's nothing like driving a one or two cylinder automobile:-)
My car has the added task of carrying such a heavy load! A problem I've been working very hard to correct,due to my recently found diabetic situation.

I did a 50+ mile problem free run with my little 105 year old oil throwing machine this summer,and I felt like I was in Heaven!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 04:09 pm:

Darren, That is one beautiful, unique automobile!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Mortensen on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 06:47 pm:

Let's see, you could park a King next to a Queen and then park a Jackson... any way to line up the enough makes to get a straight?

Long day at work guys, I'm getting loopy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 07:10 pm:

Well, there was the AC Ace in the 1950s, and the Austin Ten before that.

Here's a Jackson from a prior HME. I think it was there again this year, but almost old hat now..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 07:37 pm:

Ralph, I have an Austin Ten. Where are we lining up? :-)

a10


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 09:55 pm:

Tim,

Thanks for adding the date of 1908 for the Price List of parts that has the "AC" nomenclature for the 670 to 2570 cars. If anyone else has any "AC" references from a Ford document -- please let us know which document and approximately what date.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap Tucker 1915 Model T Ford touring cut off and made into a pickup truck and 1907 Model S Runabout. Sumter SC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By DAREL J. LEIPOLD on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 01:28 pm:

Model F
Here is information on the Model F from my original 1906 catalog.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 01:47 pm:

HME '09 would be the ideal place to line up, Dick. There are plenty of AC Cobras around, and there has to be an Ace or two.

Which King is it, the King Midget?

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 10:42 pm:

Bringing it back to the thread, this F looks like a good one. In defference to Mike, wish I could bid, but it probably will bring more than us "T" guys might be able to do. Anyway, looks like a good one. I spoke with the owner, and a few others who are familiar with the car, and it sounds like a good one.

What a great hobby, Happy New Year,

Rob


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