Bad day in Hollywood

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2008: Bad day in Hollywood
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Tuominen on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 10:50 am:

Yesterday was a great day to take the 22 out. Sunny, temps in the 50's. Took the T out to stretch her legs. 30 miles into the trip, the car just quit running. After a couple gave us a ride home to fetch the shag wagon and a Charles Co Sherriff help us load the car, we towed the car home to start troubleshooting the problem. Found the culprit. Fiber timing gear 'Cylent timing gear pat.May 13,1913". I guess these gears don't last forever.
Timing Gear


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 12:18 pm:

I sat in Trinidad CO for a week one time because the 350 that came in the Suburban had a nylon timing gear to eliminate noise. When it went, it made a mess of valves and other internal pieces. The replacement was steel, which should have been used in the first place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 12:43 pm:

Lots of hobbyists have the opinion that the fibre timing gears are prone to failure. What I have generally found on cars I have worked with that have a torn up timing gear is that the generator gear usually seems to be the culprit. If your generator shaft runs a few thousands of an inch out of true, or the gear has a little bit of pitting, etc. it can really increase your chances of tearing up a fibre timing gear. Other factors include: timing gear backlash, excessive gear clearance, crankshaft endplay, camshaft endplay, and cam bearing wear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul griesse on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 02:01 pm:

Replace that fiber gear with an aluminum one and your problems are over. (except for OTHER Model T problems, which keep us Humble....) Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 02:08 pm:

I haven't heard of any failures of the nylon T gears sold by Reeder.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 02:49 pm:

We have been installing new aluminum cam gears and new steel crank gears in all the short blocks we have done over the past 5 years and haven't had any issues with noise, etc. Yes, the aluminum gears are the way to go, but if you have a fibre gear in your engine with no noticeable wear, odds are it may last a long time too; as long as there are not any other factors that would make it prone to failure. I have seen some of the new plastic cam gears and haven't heard anything negative about them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 04:29 pm:

My fiber timing gear lasted about 1000 miles. Recommend either the aluminum gear or the white plastic gear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Perigo on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 06:46 pm:

Tom.

I have the twin to your timing gear hanging on the wall in my shop:-)

Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 07:28 pm:

I used an aluminum gear on one rebuild that I did. It gave good service for the rest of the time that I owned the car. But, for some reason, I was always a bit nervous about it. I used Bronze gears exclusively for quite a while. But, I've gone with the white nylon gears for my last three engines. I think that they're the cat's meow; modestly priced, quiet, and seem to be wearing just great.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, December 26, 2008 - 07:32 pm:

The fiber timing gears were used on Model A's without a problem, but on a T without a generator, it might work just as well as on an A.
With a generator, you are putting additional strain on the timing gear. Try to get as many of the pieces out of the oil. Probabaly good to take off the inspection plate under the crankcase and clean out the dips. Since it stopped running when it broke, you most likely don't have plugged oil lines, but worth checking the inside line while you have the timing cover off and drain the oil. At least the fiber will not stick to the magnets.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 12:24 am:

I have used a fibre gear on the '24 coupe since 1978 and it's done over 20,000 miles and never failed. I asked Lee Pierce (the local expert on mechanical matters) and he thought failures are more common when the gear on the generator does not run true.
Just to make sure, when I added an oil pump to the speedster, I used the Al gear...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Moore on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 12:35 am:

Yup those fiber gears do quiet a T motor right down--when they strip out and you coast to the side of the road with a dead motor. I've fixed a few myself (for other people) and know it happens right now and not over time. It is like replaceing a shear pin with copper wire--under the right circumstances they are going to let go.

Tim Moore


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 07:36 am:

Did any of the original engines come with a fiber gear?

I have been told that a fiber gear will work well on an early engine (with no generator) and that it why they were made, but the generator load is too much for them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 09:00 am:

I had a fiber gear fail on a Model A.

Neil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 11:30 am:

I've seen lots of fibre gears on the flathead V-8s, back in the '50s when we worked on a lot of them, but never seen one that had failed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 11:32 am:

My '15 has no generator or anything else to cause the fiber gear to strip in such a short time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, December 27, 2008 - 05:08 pm:

The later ones may not have been made of the same material.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Tuominen on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 11:46 am:

Now that I have the timing gear removed, the engine cleaned, and the parts on order, it has dawned on me that the engine is now longer in time. The timing gear and the camshaft could be installed 180 degrees apart with respect to the crankshft. With the reference materials that I own, I could only find "...to align the timing marks on the large and small gears." What is the procedure to orient the camshaft without removing the head to look at the position of the valves when I put the new timing gear back on the camshaft? Thanks in advance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 11:50 am:

Exactly what you found. Align the marks. That's all you have to do. There is no such thing as installing the camshaft 180 degrees out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 01:18 pm:

Royce - I think Tom's got it right; it is possible to be one crankshaft revolution off with marks lined up. Both valves should be closed on #1 with piston at top which would indicate top of compresion stroke; if #1 exhaust valve is open with marks on timing gear and crankshaft gear marks lined up, you are one crankshaft revolution off, or, as you say Tom; "camshaft 180 degrees off". You can tell which valves are open and which are closed by looking at the valves with the inspection plate off and the valve stems/springs visible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas J. Miller "Tom" on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 01:39 pm:

Royce has it right. There is no such thing as a cam being 180 cam degrees off. A four stroke engine has two identical piston top dead center events for each four stroke cycle. There is no way for the cam to be off with respect to the crank if the marks are lined up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 02:01 pm:

Royce & Tom (Miller) - Okey; I see it now. If the crankshaft was one revolution off, the timing marks would not be lined up; the mark on the camshaft would be 180 degrees from "lined up". My apologies! One more cuppa' coffee and Toms good explanation and I've got it figured out! Sorry Tom T.; guess I learned something here today; including not posting comments in the morning during my first cuppa' coffee!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Tuominen on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 04:31 pm:

Thanks gentlemen.


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