Disappointing Day

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2008: Disappointing Day
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Perigo on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 06:11 pm:

My T buddy and I had just finished putting together his 27 roadster. Everything was done to the engine and transmission possible.

It took a while to get it started, but it did start. It ran very rough and blew a lot of blue oil smoke out through the valve cover hole for the throttle rod. Also there was a definite, kind of metallite banging song. I didn't run it very long at all. When I cranked it over by hand, I could hear the metallic sound once in a while.

It has a "Z" head, new aluminum pistons, Chevy valves and adjustable tappets (the 3 wrench variety:-()

Where should we start???

Thanks,
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenny Edmondson on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 06:47 pm:

Mike, I think I'd pull the head off and check to see if the noise is still there when cranking by hand. Also look at the cylinders to see if there are any scratches on the walls. If the noise has gone away with the head off then look at the pistons and valves and head for contact areas. Normally I'd say to pull the Trans inspection cover off before the head, but the "lot of blue smoke" through the valve cover hole has me concerned. So pull the head first. Pull the inspection cover off the trans and look in there if the noise is still in the engine after removing the head. I'd save the pan inspection cover for last since it's not fun. What pistons were installed? What was your mag ring gap set at? What was the cam lift? Any additional accessory oil lines or anything else installed?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 06:54 pm:

Mike, what cam did you put in it? If you put in one of the new high lift cams your lifters (one or many) may be hitting the bottom of the block. A valve may be hitting the inside of the head. Here is what I would do. Pretty much the same as Kenny. I'd pull the head. Look for obvious contact spots. Then I'd put it back on with a double head gasket. Start it and see if the noise goes away. Blowing smoke out the oil filler is pretty common when you first start them but I'd be a LITTLE concerned about it blowing out the throttle rod hole. HMMMMMMMM. Wish I was there to hear it and see what we could do. I'm assuming you didn't put domed pistons in it along with a Z because they won't work together. Keep us posted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 07:16 pm:

Mike,
I put a Strip 280 cam in a 13 engine for our touring and the cam would not turn 360 deg. As it turned out, there was not enough clearance under the adjustable tappet head for the additional lift. The adjustable tappet's that I used had thicker heads than the original non-adjustable's. Milled some material off the under-side of the block (.040") and everything cleared.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 07:18 pm:

Mike,
I put a Strip 280 cam in a 13 engine for our touring and the cam would not turn 360 deg. As it turned out, there was not enough clearance under the adjustable tappet head for the additional lift. The adjustable tappet's that I used had thicker heads than the original non-adjustable's. Milled some material off the under-side of the block (.040") and everything cleared.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Perigo on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 07:44 pm:

Thank you guys,
All are very good points and need to be checked. Hopefully, we can do this tomorrow. Kenny, they were .020 oversize aluminum, non-domed pistons. The same cam that came out of the engine was reinstalled. I, too, am concerned about the smoke out of the valve chamber, so I probably need to pull the cover and check. I do believe the head is the place to start. I've heard that sometimes the "Z" head needa to be milled or double gasketed. I don't know if the block was planed in the past.

Les, I never thougtht about the tappets themselves. When we pull the cover, I can check that out.

Stan, I sure wish you could all be there because I know you guys could find the problem quickly!!! We're the only T guys in over 60 miles. I guess we could put it on the trailor and haul it to Montana....I love the Big Sky Country.

You guys are all great! I'll keep you posted!
Thanks Again,
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 09:21 pm:

I would follow all the above advice, and add this one item. put the head on without any gasket, and put in the bolts but don't tighten them. Then turn over the engine and see if it raises the head. If a valve or piston hits the head, it would likely lift the head. You can then do a little bit of grinding on the head to relieve it. Also replace any part that might have been damaged by the knocking. It should run with one gasket. If you put on two gaskets, you are defeating the purpose of the high compression head and also increasing the risk of a blown head gasket. It's very likely that the knocking is not related to the head. Also since the rings are not yet seated, it could blow some smoke out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 09:25 pm:

I would re-check those adjustable tappets for running clearances. Valves may not be closing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 09:47 pm:

sounds like another case of someone doing it themselves instead of spending a couple bucks and hiring someone that knows what they are doing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 09:48 pm:

Mike, I wasn't suggesting that you leave the two head gaskets on. I was merely suggesting that as a way to see if the knock goes away.

My thinking is that since you used the cam that came out of it the problem has to be related to the head or the valves rather than the lifters hitting the block. You say it ran very rough. That makes me think it is valves that aren't closing completely. Many times a knock has little corrolation to whether the engine is running well or not. Did you crank it over by hand before you put the head on? If you install the head with no gasket and loose bolts don't crank it over with the starter. Just EASE it over with the crank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Perigo on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 09:54 pm:

Thanks Stan,

I will recheck the tappets. Also, Stan, I will check the head with the gasket off. Also, Bob J, I will check the tappet clearance. In the past I have always used the two wrench adjustable tappets. They were out of stock, so we went with the three wrench ones....never again!!

Thanks Guys,
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 10:51 pm:

I would pull the valve covers and look around. You won't have to remove anything except the two nuts, then crank the engine over and watch the valves.

Almost the same exact thing happened to me when I rebuilt the engine in my 1912 touring this year. Ran like poo, smoking out the oil breather, could hardly keep it running.

It turned out one of the exhaust valves (#4) had the Chevy keepers fall off the valve, so that cylinder was not making power. I was able to reinstall the keepers and everything was fine after that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen on Sunday, December 28, 2008 - 11:01 pm:

"Bob", you're a jerk! Mike's a good guy, looking for advice and all you can do is berate him. Post a profile and stand behind your comments like the rest of us do. Sometimes it's not about spending money or not, but having the pleasure of taking pride in your project and doing as much of the work as possible for yourself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 12:08 am:

Mike: Nice Tudor !! Keep us informed of your progress. Thanks !!

Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 12:14 am:

Whoever you are "BOB," yes, you, the one who hasn't got the balls to sign his name if he is going to make sarcastic or insulting remarks, I'll make you a deal. I do not hire anybody to do anything that I can possibly do myself from sandblasting to rubbing out the paint. It is a matter of pride and keeps it interesting. I will put my work up against yours, whoever you are, wherever you are, anything you want. Engine work, carb work, body, paint, you pick. How about we start with babbitting & line boring??

It is not a matter of check writing with me nor is it with a lot of T guys. Mike is trying to help a friend get a car running and learn some things along the way. He doesn't need some ahole like you making snarky remarks. Why don't you post some pics and show us your work??

If I ran the forum I would post the name, address, phone number and email address every time some jerk did this. Anybody who hasn't got the balls to sign their name does not deserve the protection of anonimity.

I am:
Stanton S. Howe
4433 Red Fox Dr
Helena, Montana, 59602 USA
406-443-5658
stanhowemt@aol.com;
and I will stand behind everything I say, do or write and will sign my name to anything and everything I write.

Your turn, "BOB."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Denis Chicoine, MD on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 12:33 am:

Bob, I agree with Eric. Many of us enjoy working on our own engines and learn from the experience. I also change my own oil and tires, instead of paying someone else to do it. I also realize that most of the healthcare done in this country is done by MOTHERS!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 12:35 am:

Thanks, Stan et al. What needed to be said.

Happy New Year!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russ Grunewald on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 12:49 am:

Put a Z head on my '26 some years ago. Last year ('07)I started getting a slight knock. Number 1 piston was just barely touching the head. New head gasket took care of it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Perigo on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 08:08 am:

Thanks to everyone who has offered support.....that would leave you out "Bob"....That's what this hobby is all about!

I'm getting ready to go over to my friend's house and start by taking off the head. But before that we will go out for breakfast; will discuss other issues; talk about family; etc. In other words, this hobby brings people together; gets them talking; and away from the boob tube.

Thanks again guys! I'll keep you posted!
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Perigo on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 10:33 am:

Guys,

We took off the head and could see no signs of anything hitting it. Put it back on with no gaskets. Cranked engine by hand with no noticeable interference or noise.

The gasket seems to be very close or even touching the valves, I do know that oversize valves were installed. But there seems to be too much clearance between the pistons and the cylinder walls. I can move number 4 back and forth easily while Harold is cranking and make a piston slap sound. The pistons are .020. We told the machinist to bore .020 over. I'm no expert, but there seems to be a lot of clearance even in a cold engine. Check out the pictures.

piston clearance
gasket clearance

Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gordon Byers on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 11:28 am:

Mike, I'm wondering if your machinist bored the cylinders .020 more than they were or .020 over standard? If the former, your cylinders could be well over .20 past standard. It sounds like you have way to much clearance between your pistons and the cylinder wall.
Gordon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 11:34 am:

Mike, did anybody check the bore on the engine before the machinist got it? .020 pistons are 20 thousandths over STANDARD bore.
Might it be possible that somebody had already bored one or more of the cyls out somewhere along the line and the machinist just mic'ed the bore and added .020?
That gasket is mighty close to those to those valves!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 12:10 pm:

It's probably a little late to bring this up but you should have taken the pistons along to the machinist and had him bore the cylinders for .005 or .006 clearance over the size of the pistons rather than just "twenty over." I'm surprised that he would bore a block without having the pistons at hand. Twenty thousanths is quite a lot, you can even measure that with a ruler but a vernier caliper will measure the piston bore at the top pretty easily, a cylinder gauge is better for going down the bore. Standard is 3.750, you should be at 3.770 plus clearance for .020 over, 3.790 plus clearance for .040 over etc. That's where I'd start.
Not knowing what you have for a shop, I'll just offer this. If you don't have a bore gauge, take a piece of rod--5/16th or 1/4, grind a nice sharp chisel point on one end and then measure across the cylinder and carefully grind or file a sharp chisel point on the other end until it will just barely fit in the cylinder. It will take a few tries to get it just right, when you are done it will look like a little double pointed chisel. Then you can measure that rod with a mic to get the size of the cylinder. Many times in old T tool boxes there will be three or four of those rods marked with a punch mark or two, maybe a file nic, maybe a number stamped. That's what those are. Standards for checking cylinder wear. Since the top of the cylinder has no wear, it is 3.750. It only wears from the rings and piston skirt rubbing. By making a "measuring stick like I outlined, you can reach down in the cylinder and see how much wear there is. I have one somewhere that is attached to a dowel about 8 or 10 inches long with copper wire. Looks like a little hammer. It is amazing how little difference in diameters you can see and feel with one of these.

While I was figuring out the clearance and piston size, etc., I'd order a good gasket from Antique Auto Ranch. The one you have looks to be one of the cheap ones that is too wide in the valve area.
Keep in touch & let us know what you find.

Incidentally, it looks to me like the part that is the problem here is that you "spent a couple bucks to hire somebody," instead of doing it yourself. Maybe our resident expert, "Bob," will weigh in here with his analysis and advice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod Gaffrey on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 12:22 pm:

Well put Stan.
Mike. There may be several factors causing the problem or problems. The valves don't look like stock Chevy exhaust valves, they look like the 1.6 Chevy valve used in the higher performance engines. It looks like they could very well be touching the gasket Do you know somebody with micrometers and a bore gauge that would be willing to setup and measure the cylinders? The pistons do not have to be removed to measure. How about the machinist that did the boring and honing?
Take your time diagnosing, do it one step at time, starting with the easiest.
You will get alot of good suggestions from he people here on the form.
If you want some coaching, email or call. I have 40 years in an engine machine shop, and never had a problem with people doing their own work.

It doesn't matter what business one is in there will always be people like Bob. Thankfully they're in the minority


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 01:18 pm:

so bob was right. someone didn't know what they were doing. this probably makes you all mad too. you need to measure the bore and file the head gasket after youget the piston problem fixed. when you can slip your fingers in beside the piston there is a problemn two reasons to do ityourself. too cheap to spend the money or looking to learn. hiring a doofy machinist is either a honest mistake or attempt to get off cheap. do it yourself for cheap = do it two or three times and not cheaper in the long run. Learning also means do it two or three times, i hope you are patient and youll be ok. and that 1.6 inch valve head amounts to about 0.25 horsepower increase and not worth the effort.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By _ on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 01:35 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 01:43 pm:

Get off the forum bob. You insult our fine members.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 02:18 pm:

So "BOB" had no learning curve. He knew everything right from the beginning. As in "File the head gasket." Now there's an intelligent idea if I ever heard one. Come on, Bob, gather up all your balls and post your name. I'd like to meet you. I've only met one or two people who knew everything and I'd like to add you to the list.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 02:36 pm:

Stan, years ago I had a problem with being too conceited, but I worked real hard on it and now I'm perfect... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By gene k. french on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 04:30 pm:

Mike:
hope you are able to determine the problem(s) without too much difficulty ...regarding blue smoke ...looks like there are clear signs of oil passing thru rings possibly too much cyl./piston clearance ...valves may be hitting,but your test with the head gasket out and feeling for movement when handcranking should let you know if that is a problem ...also with the early blocks the lifter bore often had to be relieved for our current tappets...often a 1/16 or larger chamfer with a countersink bit is enough since the only interferance is at the radius on the tappet...this will require removing cam and tappets ...hope you find problem easily and share your experiance with others
P.S. Stan: i agree,if i'm going to say something to PO someone i want them to know who i am
Happy New Year
Gene K. French


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 04:55 pm:

I bet a lot of us suspect who bob is.

He sounds like a pretend professed professional engine rebuilder.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael W. Herndon on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 04:56 pm:

Hey Bob....

Some of us, as mentioned above, like the idea of digging in and learning to put it together ourselves, with friends that have experience. Some of us have considerable experience in other very demanding precision areas of occupation that prime us well to actually succeed even though it might be the first time.

We do this while understanding and accepting the possible negative consequences on our pocketbooks, and factor that into the process agreeably and with foreknowledge.

We are not being cheap, as you put it, as there are some on this forum that can by your financial life, throw it away, and not know the difference, so it is not necessarily about the cost. It is, rather, about the experience.

Now, I have to go remove a lesion that is 3 cm x 2 cm from someone's mandible, provide a bone graft into the resulting defect, preform two apicoectomies, two retrofills, place a semipermiable membrane to exclude connective tissue and allow bone formation, fix that membrane with intraosseous tacks, harvest subepitheilal connective tissue from a donor site, place that in the recipient site to achieve root coverage to correct several recessions, and close the whole thing with precision so that in the end no one knows I was there but me and the patient. All on the same patient, all right now.

I think I can handle the tolerances of an engine and recover from any mistakes I might make.

Some have the idea that only they can do a job. Give me (us) a break and don't be so negative about others attempts or so sure you know it all, "Bob". After all, we are talking about engines here. Try doing invasive surgery on your fellow man or designing a rocket that will hit something dead center that is 1 light year away. Get some perspective.

Michael


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Sanders on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 04:57 pm:

I just hate that Bob is such a common name...we catch a lot of flack and if you are red headed and left handed forget it.
Red headed - left handed Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By COMINT on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 05:04 pm:

My "spidey senses" are telling me that a quickie psychological profile report about Bob would reveal that he is a engine builder, one who is prone to constantly whining and often blames others for his shortcomings. But, I am getting old and it has been a long time since I had a top secret security clearance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 05:10 pm:

BOB,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 05:11 pm:

Hey Guys

Don't fret over the cuss who posts what he considers to be his own opinion, and only after he reads what others pointed out who posted much brighter observations.

Just remember he lower cased his name as only 'bob'. Pretty much matches his low esteem too.

'bob' just needs a correction officer to beat some sense into him.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 05:31 pm:

All I'm going to say,is you guys will find the answer to Mike's delima funny.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack watt on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 05:38 pm:

If it happen to be the case where the cylinders were .020 over and then bored to an additional .020 over that (now.040over) and assuming your rings were .020 over, I was wondering if you noticed anything unusal when you gapped the rings?
If the gap was to the max or greater without filing then I would say the cylinder were bored to large.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jh1427 on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 05:48 pm:

Hey Bob..Sanders, I have to agree 100%, My middle name is Robert--Bob too. The only other name he could have used is John or Steve. Not to pick any one with a good name. Just all the more reason to have reg. users. Jerry Bob Hoffman, Hays KS That's in the middle ohe the good old USA.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Perigo on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 05:49 pm:

Okay.....here goes! The cylinders are .055 which is a "tad" over .020. The cylinders were bored by a competent machinist who can also make mistakes. Who knows? Maybe he got into it and needed to take off more to true up the cylinders. But why stop at .055??? And why didn't he tell us???

Now the good part....Jack asked who put the short block back together.....well....I did :-( And why I didn't notice the piston fit then is beyond me. This was not my first rebuild. Brain fart, senior moment.....who knows.

So, you can imagine the amount of piston slap in all 4 cylinders which were, by the way, all bored the same. It looks like the whole thing comes completely apart and is bored the rest of the way to .060 over. But you know it's a hobby, only a hobby. We all had a good laugh even the owner and decided to begin taking it apart tomorrow.

As for the valves, the machinist decided to do that, so what the heck. Now we need to find a gasket that has more valve clearance. I'll check with the antique auto ranch.

I have a friend (56 years old) who is battling leukemia who may miss his daughter's wedding; my cousin's young nephew committed suicide right before Thanksgiving; and the list could go on and on. But the point is; It's only a hobby!!!

So, "bob," all you have succeeded in doing is making a fool out of yourself.....shame on you. Life's too short to give you a moments notice!

Thanks guys! I'll keep you posted!!
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Indy. on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 06:09 pm:

Mike, The crow pie isn't very tasty. At least no one was injured. (G) Notice I don't post my "senior momentoes "


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 06:16 pm:

Mike,
Do you know someone who has a set of .030 over pistons? Maybe, someone has some used ones on hand or a set of new ones that have not been installed. You might try them in the cylinders without the rings and see how the clearance measures with a feeler gauge. you might get lucky. .030 is a standard oversize which all the T parts suppliers stock. If the clearance is near .0055 you would not have to bore it or remove the engine to replace the pistons.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod Gaffrey on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 07:29 pm:

Mike. Just one more suggestion, for what it's worth, then I'll shut up, maybe. If you have an engine stand mount the engine to it and rotate the engine upside down. Rotate the crankshaft or camshaft until the valves are closed on one of the cylinders, squirt two of three shots of penetrating oil onto the back side of the valves, for that particular cylinder, then look at the valve heads for droplets or seepage, give it a minute or two, if no seepage is visable, move to the next cylinder. All 8 valves need to pass this test.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 08:29 pm:

Mike, I've been following your story about you and your friend's bad luck. I have never had the pleasure of pulling an engine in a Model T yet. I bought mine rebuilt,and luckily haven't had any major problems with it,(yet). I have however,in my younger years, swapped several junk-yard engines overhauled a few and rebuilt several pieces of heavy equipment. I have more than once had to pull an engine or transmission back out because something wasn't right or didn't line up or various other problems. I did it to save money because I didn't have any and if I didn't want to walk,it had to be done. That was many years ago and now I could probably afford to hire it done(barely), but with the model T, I will do all the work on it that I'm capable of because that's part of the hobby, and it doesn't matter if its down for a while. I would very much doubt if you and I are the only two people on this forum who have had a little bad luck along the way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 09:24 pm:

If you own a Model T, the smart thing to do is have a spare engine standing by if you ever have problems. By simply switching engines, you can dismantle the problem engine at your leisure, and it will be a more enjoyable experience. I always try to look out for decent running engines to make into spares for my herd of T's. I got one for 50 bucks at a swapmeet, only needed a cleaning and some new gaskets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 09:40 pm:

Don , that's a damn fine suggestion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Perigo on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 09:54 pm:

Thanks, Rod, that sounds like an easy test. And John, I know that you and I not alone in this:-) I'll bet there's at least 15 million past and present that could join a T support group:-)

Extra engine......now that's not a bad idea!

Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 10:09 pm:

Mike - I'm not sure on this, but to add to what Norman said about the possibility of finding .030 pistons and trying them out for size (clearance) if that is a possibility and doesn't quite do it, you might get an experts opinion (certainly not MY opinion) on having those .030 pistons knurled to take up a little more of the excessive clearance. Again, I'm not sure, but I think knurling the pistons (skirts) can add as much as .010 - .015 to the diameter, and that just might do it if you find some .030 pistons. Also, there are those that claim that knurling is very successful in that the knurling holds oil and actually tends to decrease the rate of wear on the cylinders. Just a thought,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 10:22 pm:

Mike,as soon as i saw the second picture I could tell you had to much piston clearance.The ring groove is visable in the lower left hand corner of the picture.
BUT I would also check them dang chevy valve keepers.Mine were not letting the valve close all the way.

And in reference to BOB,or bob,whoever you may be.Learning about these T's and how to keep them running is as much of the hobby as owning and driveing them.If folkes dont take the time to learn to do this work themselves,before long few would be on the road,they would all be in museums or whatever.
I say we all need to ask Bob for a donation to have our engines rebuilt to specs.Or maby he knows how and can build our engines for us?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 10:53 pm:

Don's suggestion of having a spare engine standing by is a good one. While I haven't intentionally done that, I stumbled into the idea's worthiness this past summer. Some of you know that I have a 1915 Coupelet project waiting in the wings. Last winter, I built the engine for it and had it all finished, sitting on an engine stand. Just before time to drive my '15 Touring to Richmond in July, the car's original engine developed a slight knock. I didn't have time (or money) to rebuild that engine at that time, but since I had a brand-new '15 engine just sitting there, it was a no-brainer to swap it into the Touring for the trip. In two days' time the car was good to go! I put 1,800 miles on that engine in July and 1,250 more going to and from our club's Fall tour in Vicksburg, MS. One of these days I'll rebuild the Touring's original engine and put it back where it belongs, and the Coupelet engine will be all ready to go and already broken in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Perigo on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 11:22 pm:

Harold,

Jack Daron mentioned knurling to me today on the phone. I guess I'm not sure what knurling really is.

Why wouldn't you start with a .040 over piston instead of a .030 over? It seems that you would ahve more to work with. This is all new to me...the knurling, I mean.

Thanks,
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 11:29 pm:

From what I understand somehow you have a tool that expands the piston skirts to take up a little slop without doing a rebore.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 11:31 pm:

I just thought of something.May have allready been mentioned.If there is a valve not closeing,exhaust could be getting past the stem and comeing out the valve cover.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Scherzer on Monday, December 29, 2008 - 11:38 pm:

I really think you are going to have to go to.060 over pistons and rebore to fit at this point since I don't think .030 or even .040 over pistons will work correctly, not in a .055 overbore. However, before you do that check and see what sleeving the block back to a.020 over will run so the same pistons and rings could be used over again. I haven't kept on these part prices but it might be cheaper and you get a better cylinder wall when sleeved. And as Stan said have the pistons there when the boring to fit the .060os pistons or boring the sleeves to fit the .020os pistons. I'm surprised your guy didn't ask for then when he bored it the first time and also have along with a good set of mikes.

Another thing you should do is make yourself up an engine stand to break the engine in on first. I always run my rebuilds for at least 2 to 3 hours on a stand to check for any problems before dropping it in the car. A whole lot easier to see, listen, make adjustments as well as making any corrections before giving the OK to install in the car. Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Perigo on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 07:46 am:

Bob,

I tend to agree with you on the sleeving. To me, it makes sense. In fact, we discussed that yesterday. The pistons and rings together run about $120.00. It could be a wash, but I agree with you that sleeving, if done properly, will make a better cylinder wall.

An engine would be a big help and save a lot of time and sweat, cussing, etc.

Thanks,
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 10:32 am:

Mike, you asked what knurling is and I see no one answered.

knurling is a row of 'coining' run around the skirt of the piston about 1/2" up. Looks a bit like a skinny hatband when done. There are different knurls, each with its own expectation as to amount of material 'coined'. Proper knurling is a finish operation and you select a knurl tool to give you what you want as far as size, roughly 1/2 the original polt depth. Some just gouge it out and then add a grind, but that is not necessary.

There is the NP16 form which makes what looks like a ring of plaid, and the NP-16 is designed to coin up I believe .008" and still leave a bit of a land on the OD, check with someone who knows more as to actual 'coin'. There is a TPI3060 that does diamonds pattern that is also common. It raises to points and I again think it is a .005" lift when done as supposed.

From what I have seen, it seems as though those who go NP16 go one row, those who use the other do 2 rows.

I do not know where the practice started, but it is used today by race car 'blueprinting' of engines and was supposedly part of the Mopar dominance in the race car world of years ago. Concept says it stops piston slap.

When it has been mentioned here before some have questioned use on a T piston, some have questioned how long it lasts etc., and the answer to both is to go to the local race shop...and ask them...they are more familiar with the working results.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kent on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 11:18 am:

Years ago, I built a "hard-way 74" out of a 61ci HD knucklehead. To do so, I had to bore the cylinders .120, that's 1/8". It wasn't until about two years later that I found out I couldn't do that. Good thing I was young and dumb, or it might not have worked. As I get older, "knowing too much" gets in the way of a lot of innovation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 12:02 pm:

Knurling will work on a piston just a few thousandths too large and the oil held in the knurl will better lubricate and quiet the slap. However, with the large difference in the cylinder and the piston noted above and visible in the picture, the top of the piston will rock back and forth and quickly wear out the grooves and rings. It will also slap. The only solution to this problem is to place larger pistons or to sleeve.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Scherzer on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 12:53 pm:

Back when I worked at a Hypo shop they had a piston knurler and we used it more to put the knurls on the thrust side of the piston and then removed most of it to return the piston back to its basic size but leaving just a small patch of raised knurl and the grooves of the knurl in the piston so oil was retained to get better lube on the thrust side of the piston which would tend to gall at high rpms without it. We very seldom ever used it to oversize a worn piston to be reused in worn cylinder. Although its original intent was designed for that purpose.

They later got a machine to put Teflon buttons on the thrust side which allowed only the buttons to contact the cylinder wall reducing piston galling altogether.

The problem of using an knurled undersized piston is the rings are so far out of their ring grooves that they flip flopping up and down as the piston reciprocates so that they become wore round at the point of contact with cylinder wall and can no longer seal properly if they haven't already become broken from the contortions. This also bellmouths the piston grooves ruining the piston at the same time. Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Tuesday, December 30, 2008 - 01:11 pm:

In the early 70's, I helped a friend of mine pull a piston in a Moto-Guzzi motorcycle,terrible piston slap,right side. He had it knurled It solved the problem. As I remember it just added a few thousands,and he got rid of it shortly after, so I never found out if it held up.


Add a Message


This is a public posting area. Enter your username and password if you have an account. Otherwise, enter your full name as your username and leave the password blank. Your e-mail address is optional.
Username:  
Password:
E-mail:

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration