Line boring the 5 main block

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2008: Line boring the 5 main block
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 08:40 pm:

Here are a few pictures for your general interest. Of note I show facing the thrust surface using the Tobin Arp facing tool (which I really like as it allows you to move the cutter radially as it spins)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chuck Hoffman on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 08:56 pm:

Nice lookin' main caps. Looks like it's ready to be the first 8000 rpm T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 10:28 pm:

I have been chastised for not providing more descriptions with my pictures so here goes
1 and 2 showing the line up using dial indicators to confirm that I am centered
3 shows boring the rear most bearing
4 shows the completed boring to size
5 shows facing the thrust surface so that the shell bearings will fit. In this case the shells being used are from 2.3 litre Ford OHC up to 1990.
Yet to do is to bore out the cam bores and drill the oil holes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 12:07 am:

Les,

Very impressive....I remember Crower had make 5 journal crankshafts for you. It's great seeing what the crankshafts go in. Good looking workmanship. I roughed out a camshaft (8620) for our 2 cyl. REO and had Crower do the final grinding/heat treatment. They do nice work! Sitting inside Dave Crower's office is a real treat. Never seen so many interesting cam and crankshafts sitting on the floor, neat pictures hanging the walls....His desk is surrounded. The connecting rods they make are also a pice of art.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 01:07 am:

Please keep showing us pictures of this fine work!
I also like your choice of main cap bolts,high quality,low price,and clearance! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Tosch on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 12:40 pm:

Les,

I've been watching from the start and you have a great project. I really enjoy seeing your pictures of the machining involved.

Now for some questions. I too have a Tobin Arp line boring machine, a Model TA-14, which is similar to yours. When you set up for the main bearing line boring process, how did you make sure the center to center distance between the main bearing bores and the camshaft bores was correct? Your first and second pictures show you aligning just with the existing bore without regard to the gear center to center distance? Was this distance determined when the rough bores were made and did you do this on your Tobin Arp? There is a fixture with my machine that fits into the camshaft bore and positions a temporary alignment bore in the proper place to use for aligning the boring bar so that the center to center distance will be correct.

Charlie Tosch
Brandon, Manitoba


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod Gaffrey on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 01:18 pm:

Charlie. Tobin Arp are good machines.
Is the lineup fixture you have for the Model T or the Model A?. If it is for the Model T could you post a picture of it? Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 01:37 pm:

Charlie
This is what I love about this forum. Some day i would like to visit with you as you are not too far away
1. On this block the rough bores were located using a CNC machining center using dimensions from the Ford factory drawings. Otherwise I would be faced with the dilemma you mention.
2. I do not have the fixture you mention. I do have a pair of line up fixtures for the Ford A B block and also for the flathead V8.
I have a pair of fixtures I made myself that allow you to position centered to the lower deck and between the bolt holes.
If you have a universal type of fixture I would be really interested in seeing a picture of it, perhaps you could post that as Rod has mentioned.
I will post pictures of my other fixtures for comparison.
3. In regards to the machining on this block I did it all with high speed steel tooling (no carbide) and took .020" diameter per cut. It machined really easily.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Tosch on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 02:51 pm:

Rod and Les,

Now I'm embarrassed.......... my shop is rather small with too much stuff in it and I can't locate my jigs for a picture. However, they are Model A jigs and I imagine they are much like the ones Les has. I copied the design from jigs that were with another Tobin Arp machine in one of the local automotive machine shops 20 years ago. I designed them myself with my own dimensions. Basically, they were made from 3/8" plate steel with a piece of round bar stock that was the same diameter as the camshaft bore. There is also a hole through the plate to use for aligning the boring bar using the alignment gauges that came with the boring bar. The leg of the alignment jig rests on the oil pan surface on the block. I usually clamp the jig to the pan surface so it can't move while I'm aligning the boring bar. The distance between the alignment hole and the center of the round bar stock that fits into the camshaft bearing bore equals 1/2 of the pitch diameter of the crank gear PLUS 1/2 of the pitch diameter of the cam gear. This will give the correct spacing between the camshaft bearing and the main bearing centerlines. With a little math you can design your own jig for a Model T using the same principles.

jig

Charlie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Tosch on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 02:55 pm:

Oops, I forgot one detail. Two jigs are needed, one for each end of the cylinder block. They are sort of mirror images of each other because the round bar that fits into the cam bearings has to be on different sides of the jig to work at both ends of the block.

Charlie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod Gaffrey on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 03:11 pm:

Charlie. Did you ever know a fellow by the name of Jack Smith? He restored Hudsons and drove a beautiful 1929 Hudson. I think he was from Brandon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Tosch on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 03:24 pm:

Rod,

I knew Jack really well, he was in our car club. Jack passed away 2 or 3 years ago and he is missed by many. He lived and had his shop in Lena, Manitoba, about 60 or 70 miles southeast of Brandon. Lena is due north of Rolla, ND and not too many miles north of the US/Canada border.

On another note, I checked out your profile and noticed your website. It looks like your are a babbitting expert and we could probably learn a lot from you.

Charlie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lum on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 04:36 pm:

Now this how this forum is supposed to work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 05:34 pm:

Charlie
here are pictures of my line up tools.
1. The A an B one, just like your home made one
2. next is the V8 one
3. Here is a expanding one that came too
4. And some I made that center the bar to the surface of the block and centre between the cop bolts
One comment on doing T's though and that is the Tobin Arp bar is 1 1/8" which is really big for doing a T (not a lot of chip room).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Tosch on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 06:00 pm:

Les,

Thanks for posting the pictures of your alignment jigs. I could make good use of the last two, the expanding one and the ones you made which center between the cap studs. Do you have any idea where some of the expanding type might still be available? I guess they would have been available in a range of sizes to fit different sized bores.

My next project will be boring the mains on a 1910 Cadillac Model 30 (5 main bearings). The original bearing shells are all in excellent condition are made of something the Cadillac sales literature called 'Parsons White Brass'. The shells are made entirely of this material, are about 5/16" thick, and are not babbitted. I am hoping to save the original shells by having the crankshaft main journals industrial hard chrome plated and ground 0.010" or 0.020" OVERSIZE and then boring the main bearings to fit.

Rebuilding the Cadillac engine will be one of my winter projects.

Charlie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 06:24 pm:

Charlie
The expanding tool I trust to get "close" and I suppose it might be close enough. I would use the dial indicators that show in the first 2 pictures. Another suggestion would be to make a couple of "doughnuts" that have a 1 1/8" hole and a od to fit your bearing saddles (probably I would use aluminum maybe 1/2" thick or a little more).
Do you have the dial indicator shafts and related parts for your machine?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 06:55 pm:

Charlie,
Your Cad bearings sound a lot like Rolls' "white metal bearings" (or maybe it was Bentley). I'm trying to remember from 20+ years ago, seems to me that they required a greater clearance than babbit bearings. You might want to check some documentation on them before getting the crank ground to size.
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Tosch on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 07:44 pm:

Les,

Here are my dial indicators. They are different from what yours look like and maybe they are an earlier version as my machine is a TA-14 and I think you said yours was a TA-15. That's assuming the TA-14 came before the TA-15.

Set

arm

dial

As for the expanding alignment tool, I was thinking that it expanded in the bore in place of the crankshaft and then the center hole was used with the dial indicator. Is that correct? Anyway, my query about obtaining one was just me thinking ahead to one day when I might need it to do a job. To align the Cadillac I was already planning to do exactly what you suggested.

Charlie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Tosch on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 08:01 pm:

David,

Thanks for the heads up on the clearance. I'll check it out before I make a mistake.

Charlie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod Gaffrey on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 08:37 pm:

Charlie. I met Jack 8-10 years ago. He was heading to Medora, ND for the summer car show when a rod failed in his Hudson. That evening i rebabbitted and finished the rod and helped him put it in. we had it up and running about 10 pm. He told me that your chances of having a rod fail in a town, where somebody still babbitts are one in a million. He would stop and visit every year.
Your pictures didn't come through. I would imagine your indicators are similar to the kind Les has only there are 3 pair of fingers and you read the end of the mandrel for center.
I think the kind Les has is a later style that came with the Tobin Arp triangular head machine.
This question is for both you and Les. do you have any trouble with the block moving when you snug up the support brackets that bolt to the pan rail?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 09:04 pm:

Rod
Well as you know you spend way more time setting up than you do machining;
1. I get the block to set down nicely on the supports. The TA supports can be leveled independently so the the block sets down nice. They can also be shifted vertically a little too (maybe 1/8" total.
2. For centering I have found that I prefer centre it vertically first and then shift it horizontally with gentle taps.
3. then I snug down the two bolts that hold down the support rails while checking the dial indicators. It normally doesn't move more than .0005"
After this is snugged I attach the side supports and the thrust support and recheck the dial indicators and hopefully it hasn't moved (usually not)
If the indicators have moved I loosen all the bolts and then retighten (usually after readjusting the centreing) This only happens very occasionally.
Today I line bored the cam bores in the cylinder head of a BMW 2002 TI race car. The guy is installing a bigger cam shaft and needed bigger holes. It was a nasty thing to do because only 2 of the 3 holes were being opened up so i had to be bang on. Usually if you are out .001" no one cares, here I figured that would be more than I wanted so I got down to .0005'. Of course this is a used head and the front cam bearing was worn about .001 to .0015 on the bottom which gave me goofy readings.
Anyway i got done and the cam spins nice and freely with .001-.0015" clearance on a 1.75" dia. bearing


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Tosch on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 11:27 am:

Rod,

I've never had any problem with the block shifting when I tighten the pan rail support brackets. I do make sure that the brackets are at the same elevation as the pan rail before I tighten them though. I then tighten the machine end of the brackets before I tighten the bolts at the pan rail end.

Charlie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Tosch on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 11:31 am:

Les,

I like your alignment indicator set up better than mine. Will you please post some close ups of the alignment bar and dial indicator as I'd like to fabricate one for my machine. Thanks.

Charlie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod Gaffrey on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 12:09 pm:

Charlie. I have the same indicators as you do. Do you have the same block mount/support/ adjusters as Les? Mine are the older ones, they originally didn't have any, independent, vertical adjustment. With some modification, there is now about 3/16" vertical. There is alot of horizontal adjustment.
Pictured is a V12 Lincoln, the supports for all V style engines are homemade.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Tosch on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 03:04 pm:

Rod,

My block supports are the same as the ones Les has. There seems to be more than enough adjustment to fine tune the alignment as I've never had a problem doing that.

By the way, we have been to at least 12 or 15 Medora Car Shows over the years. The last one I was at was the last time I saw Jack Smith before he passed away. We had supper with him. He surely enjoyed steak and especially the pitchfork fondue. The next time I'm in Dickinson I'd like to stop in and meet you.

Charlie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 06:56 pm:

Would one of you fellows post a good close photo of the Tobin Arp self contained hydraulic rotation and horizontal feed this align boring machine so everyone can see it?
You can barely see it in the photo above but it is hard to envision how it works with out another view/s.
In my opinion that is one of the better features of the TA machinery.
Ron the Coilman.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Tosch on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 07:17 pm:

OK, here you go, dust and all. The arrow shaped handle controls the direction of feed and the round knob controls the speed of the feed.

bore1

bore2

bore3

Charlie Tosch


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 07:24 pm:

Charlie
How about another shot farther back showing the complete rotation works?
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Tosch on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 07:48 pm:

Ron,

Sorry, but I have too much stuff in the way right now and can't get back any further. Maybe Rod or Les will do that.

However, there really isn't much more to see. The large pulley that you can see under the half round guard is driven by the v-belt that is showing. The motor is on a stand directly under the hydraulic drive pulley.

The vertical rod in front of the arrow shaped handle just puts pressure on the motor base to keep it from moving around. There is another rod hanging down that is attached to the circumference of the pulley guard. That rod gets attached to the pan rail of the block as one more way of preventing the block from moving during the boring operation. You can see how it works in Rod's picture above. You can also see the v-belt, part of the motor, and the motor mounting base on Rod's shop floor.

Charlie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 08:04 pm:

What is the copper jacketed engine behind the TA machine?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod Gaffrey on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 08:21 pm:

Charlie. I sure hope you do stop, let me know ahead of time and I'll get some donuts.
Yes, Jack was really quite a guy.
Is the Cadillac engine, your going to rebuild, behind the TA-14
Ron. I'm setting up a the crankcase for a Happy Farmer tractor and will get a couple pic's tomorrow.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie Tosch on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 09:26 pm:

Stan and Rod,

The copper jacketed engine is indeed the 1910 Cadillac engine. It's slated for a complete rebuild this winter.

Rod, I take you up on your doughnut offer next time I anywhere near, hopefully next summer, but who knows?

Charlie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 10:46 pm:

Rod, my stepdad, who is gone for many years now, had a Happy Farmer tractor when he was very young and had just started farming. He said it only made him happy twice. The day he bought it and the day he got it sold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan McEachern on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 12:53 am:

This is turning into quite a TA discussion. Charlie and Rod- your machines have a support arrangement for the drive unit that I have not seen before, but I seem to have some of the vertical rod hardware for that drive. My machine has the same drive as Less' machine with the two vertical uprights that the drive mounts onto.
Rod- I notice your machine is an early one like mine where you can tip the table end to end by depressing the foot pedal on the RH table screw- that is why your parallel set had no vertical ajdustment- TA changed this on later machines as you know. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod Gaffrey on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 05:39 pm:

Stan. Yes, the word is that this was not a very good tractor. All it has to do now is run in a parade and run a thresher once in awhile. Maybe the engine was not the problem. The engine seems to be rather stout, has large counterweighted crank with large main and rod brgs. This is the second happy Farmer engine that has arrived for babbitting.
A father and son in Wisc just finished a ground up restoration of one.
Ron. Here are three pic's of the TA drive .
Dan. This machine had to be a nightmare to setup using the footpedal. The foot pedal was missing from the RH adjusting screw when I purchased this machine. The parallels have been modified to adjust independently now. It works fine now.
Les, Sorry for hijacking your thread.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 05:52 pm:

Rod
I appreciate your getting on board here. I have not seen your version of the TA machine (although i have seen it in my instruction book).
The cleanliness of your shop embarrasses me!
A friend has one and he has 3 arms to hold the bar. I suppose it might work well with the long bar I have.
I see your arms have the supports turned around and I will have to do that to bore out the cam bores on my 5 main block.
I am looking at boring the cam bearings out to 1.5" so that I can run a big cam with .330 lift. No doubt I will have to create clearance for the lifters against the block


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod Gaffrey on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 09:00 pm:

Les, You have a very interesting project there with the 5 main block.
I should be able to help you and Stan. Most of these are used, in the shop, but do have a couple extra. Besides Stan said they're worth alot of money.
Oh, by the way I cleaned the TA before taking the picture.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 09:51 pm:

Rod
Do you have any odd special line up tools to show us for your TA?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dmc on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 03:02 am:

Rod- does your machine have a double v-belt driving the bar? The belt looks wider than a single belt. You are correct- the early machines with the foot pedal had to be a bear to setup and align. Nice mic collection- I was not aware TA made the large diameter mic. I knew that they made a 1" mic for the slant top machines but not one for the larger bore diameters.
Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod Gaffrey on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 01:32 pm:

DMC
It is single belt drive.
The 1.5 mic is used with a Hub City portable alignboring machine, some real old blocks won't fit on the TA-14, they're the size of a small bath tub.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By eric o'hara on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 06:43 pm:

Charlie and David,
Thanks for really interesting thread, nice and relaxed too.
I'm not sure if I am talking about the same but from memory the Rolls Royce bearing material used as well as the more common bearing metal, was "Halls Metal". I think this was used on quite late generation (1937/38?)Derby Bentley 4.25 and RR 25/30 and some pre war Wraith engines. I have a note that a normal metal clearance of .003" for the mains would be .004" (nominal bearing size of 2.600") for the Halls Metal. It is also prone to "settling" and stress relieving in use. I have often seen bearings removed from these engines in a very "mosaic" condition and quite a lot of wear on a Nitrided crank. Having said that I think it was able to survive in that condition for a remarkably long time. Thanks for the great Forum. Eric.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 02:55 am:

Eric,
That must be it, because I was working on a Bentley from that time frame. We never tore downt he RR 25/30 engine, but did build up a P1 /27 American engine. Wow, old memories!
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By eric o'hara on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 02:44 pm:

Nice memories, they are lovely engines to work with. I have found that seeing the Rolls Royce engineering first hand has really helped me make all sorts of subsequent decisions in the restoration world, regardless of engine type or quality. I am currently working on a little engine that is the opposite end of the scale. I t is a rare early OHV, "C.I.M.E" engine from about 1922. I am having to produce many items, when in doubt I can just consider what RR would have done whether clearance, oil feed or material selection. By the way CIME stands for Company Industrial Motors + Explosions. !! It is a French Company. The engine is destined for a GN.


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