Another idea for a oil pump for T

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2008: Another idea for a oil pump for T
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 06:57 pm:

I have been pondering the best way to put a oil pump to the 5 main project. Yesterday while out skiing with my old friend Stan (Evenson) (he is one of the smartest old mechanics I have ever met) we came up with the idea of putting a gear on the back end of the T cam shaft and then driving a flathead V8 pump. This pump is quite slim and it looks like it would fit nicely inside the T crankcase (provided you don't have a magneto). Looks like you would need to add a 1/2" dia extension for 1 1/2" to the back of the cam shaft and then machine out a piece to hold the pump. The advantage is that it would get the pump down close to the oil level so priming it would be a lot less of a problem. It also comes with a built in relief valve.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 07:02 pm:

I see a new standard volume pump is about $110.00 and a high volume is about $170.00 so pretty affordable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 09:13 pm:

how about a VW oil pump mounted and run right off the cam in same place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 09:29 pm:

Mark
Ok the problem is that it is a long way above the oil level and does cause some problems with priming. If the engine sits for awhile you are well advised to "blip" the throttle to insure the pump primes. If you don't prime it and just start the engine at slow idle and let it run and you are running a full pressure system you will burn out your bearings after a few minutes. Also you still need to add a relief valve. I have run a number of VW pumps on the T so I familiar with them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 09:46 pm:

Mark
Ok the problem is that it is a long way above the oil level and does cause some problems with priming. If the engine sits for awhile you are well advised to "blip" the throttle to insure the pump primes. If you don't prime it and just start the engine at slow idle and let it run and you are running a full pressure system you will burn out your bearings after a few minutes. Also you still need to add a relief valve. I have run a number of VW pumps on the T so I familiar with them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome R. Hoffman, Hays KS on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 11:05 pm:

Les, not being familiar with the v8 pump do you have any pictures of that pump to post so we who are not familiar can get an idea? Jerry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome R. Hoffman, Hays KS on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 11:27 pm:

No need Les, I went hunting on the www and have an idea what your talking about. I think it might work but won't you need to bulge out the oil Pan to have it sit down in the oil? J


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome R. Hoffman, Hays KS on Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 11:28 pm:

Forgot the pic I found.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Moore on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 12:22 am:

Les,

This is a Teal oil pump with an adjustable relief valve available at Grangers. I would think that you could take a generator apart and use the front of the generator with a seal (to use the standard front plate) and make your shaft to drive it. I have some other front plate oil pumps but those are for Fronty aluminum plates and you would have to run a side drive ignition instead of a timer or dist.

I don't like those oil pumps that are on the back of the cam since they are hidden inside the motor and you can't get to them. I started out on a VW type but threw it out once. I like the idea of an outside oil pump that is low but you know lots more than I do.

You really do some nice work that is way beyond most all of us. I also have a 5 main that is finished but it is bolt in webs with a Laurel crank from the 20's. I don't know if you have seen it but if not and want to I can send a photo--e-mail me if you want to see it through my profile.

I haven't ran one of these Teals but they are outside and low, no fuss to get to them.

Tim Moore


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 01:00 am:

Its been 10 years but i rember seeing a re worked T block with inside oil lines and it had a piston pump that ran off a cam lobe.Anyone else ever seen one of those?Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 03:14 am:

Les, Les Schelley of Action Gear, 949-645-8212 is planning on production of an oil pump that will be mounted on the front oil pan horse shoe inside the front of the pan and run off of the crank gear. He keeps promising me that he will get it done but hasn't yet, so call him and build a fire under him. I think it is a great idea and puts the pump down low where it belongs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dave willis on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 03:49 am:

i built a T engine with a chain-driven external brass gear pump like the teal..i ran copper lines outside the block [like bugatti did]to all the pressure feeds and even had a line to flow over the transmission drums...it worked well and looked very complex and period when polished up...i ran the thing at high rpms brutally and never had any lube issues!! however head gaskets were another story..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 08:21 am:

Why not the eccentric bi-rotor pump from the Austin A-series engines? Unlike the VW pump which in a VW is near the oil, the A-series pump is driven off the camshaft so it is a long way from the oil.

Yes, it would run backwards, but so does the VW pump and yes, it would still need a pressure-relief valve, but with magnets and field coil removed which I assume would be standard fare for any "racing" T engine it might be nice because it can be housed inside the engine.

I might have an old one and can take a picture if you are interested.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 09:51 am:

I saw Schelley's gear about 7 years ago, and he was planning production back then. It has no id, but he said it was found in a T engine. Seems like it needed a long intake line from the sump.

I can think of two reasons for high mounted oil pumps losing prime. . One is obvious, a leak developing in the intake plumbing. . The other is cavitation. An oil pump is asked to suck up a wide range of viscosities, depending on temperature, and what's best cold isn't so good hot, etc.

Splash has been good enough for the Fronty with Chevy crank and rods.

I haven't worried about adding a filter, as the leaks provide progressive oil change.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 10:10 am:

I can think of a third reason for high-mounted pumps losing prime - excessive clearance inside the pump.

My worn-out '79 Mini 1000 didn't seem to care...

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 11:15 am:

RD,Do you use hand oilers with a felt to oil the over head?? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 11:31 am:

Yeh, Bud. I added the grease cups so I could squirt oil without removing the valve cover. . I also have a PCV valve to suck the vapors past the mechanismos.

Somebody reproduces felts for the Chevy head; I should buy some, as mine are small.

I bought an era cam lobe oil pump off tbay, but never bothered to install it.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 01:22 pm:

Jerome
I think if i swing it at a bit of a angle towards the centre of the engine I can avoid modifying the pan at least with the 3 dip version which is my first choice for a modified engine. I consider it much more stout and no body wants them which makes good ones cheap.
Tim
I have seen the Teal pump used. My concerns are; 1. still high above the oil level and usually you will have a long oil inlet line, 2 If you drive it off the generator gear it is really turning over (1.5 times engine speed?) Oil pumps generally don't work as well at these high speeds especially if they do not have a flooded suction.
Ken
plunger pumps no doubt work but a cam lobe is not what I would consider ideal, a eccentric works much better and I have added one of those to a stock t cam to run a mechanical fuel pump which i was experimenting to use as a low pressure oil pump, it was not a huge success!
Glen
Thanks for the info on the front driven pump, i will phone him and see what he says. I can see the major cost item is probably the price of the special gear you need to fit in there to run on the crank gear and drive the pump. In quantity they wouldn't be too bad cost wise, getting there is the problem. I will drop by in a week or so to visit if you are around.
Dave
Nice to here i am not the only nutbar around. Perhaps you could post some pictures.
Seth
Sure I would like to know more about the Austin pump. What exact model would I look for to buy one? pictures would be great. What speed does it run at? cam speed or? The nice thing about the flathead pump is it is still being made (and likely for years to come. A while back i bought one of these Datsun B210 adapters, of course the B210 is basically a obsolete orphan now.
RDR
I like your car, and I am certainly not advocating for anyone to go pressure, but you must admit it does have a place in the game of speedsters where a lot of it is doing your own thing, and thankfully we have that opportunity.
All
I prefer to bury my oil lines in side, I don't like using copper if I can avoid it (fatigue cracking has bitten me big time in the past).
Anyway I appreciate all the response, This what I really like about this forum


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 02:05 pm:

Les,

All Austin A-series engines. Runs at cam speed. These engines were produced from 1952 until 2000. Displacements of 803cc, 848cc, 948cc, 998cc, 1098cc, and 1275cc and also 970,1071, and 1275cc in Cooper S form (bigger bore versions).

Popular applications you will be familiar with are the MG Midget from 1961 and forward, the Healey Sprite from 1958 forward, and the classic Mini (1959 to 2000).

There are both pin drive and star drive versions. I have one from a 1098cc Sprite (pin drive) and I will dismantle it and take pictures. It is less than 1.5" thick and less than 3.5" diameter where it mounts to the engine. It is held on the back of the block by three 1/4"-28 bolts.

Pics to follow.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 02:28 pm:

My apologies for the small pictures - I'm limited to 100kb.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 06:56 pm:

Seth
that is pretty slick little pump. I will have to do more research.
Thank you for the pictures


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome R. Hoffman, Hays KS on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 07:32 pm:

Seth, neat little pump, biggest trouble I see with it is you would have to make a spacer/bracket/adaptor to mate/hold an in and an out line. Got an extra old one I can barrow to mach up in 3-d to see how it could work?

Les, I've spent the last 3 to 4 hours going thru my photos here at the house and have only come up with one picture of the engine my father and I built when I was in high school. I'm sure I have more but no prints handy. I'll scan it in and see if I can zoom in and highlight the area behind the generator. We also used a teel pump. After figuring out that the outlet was on the side of the pump closest to the block, we tilted it on a spacer so that the fitting would be accessible. I go now and do some photoshop and I hope I have a good enough photo to post. J


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome R. Hoffman, Hays KS on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 09:35 pm:

Here is the picture, not the best, it was taken with a Kodak 110 Instamatic. This is the best I could do to sharpen/lighten it. My other hobby is photography and most of my high school years I took transparencies and have yet to convert them over to digital so most of what I have is only the last 10 years or so, ever since your able to get a CD when you take it in for developing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( www.ModelTengine.com ) on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 09:54 pm:

Ok, I'll take a guess. Water vapor cooled, air injected vaporized NH carb, Bosch distribu-pump, genopumperator, what on earth is all that?!?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome R. Hoffman, Hays KS on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 10:18 pm:

It's sitting on a test stand. The fuel line in the long tube in front and a small hose(very small) is fitted to a rubber air cap on the cylinder head to give a small amount of cold water. When this picture was taken the engine was test ran for just a few minutes at a time. The carb is a NH run into the intake of a holly vaporizer. Even in the summer it would ice up on the test stand. I hope to revive it this spring, new carb setup in mind and an aluminum head.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 10:52 pm:

Jerome
well I like it! Of course I like when people do creative things.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 10:54 pm:

Jerome,not wanting to badly hyjack the thread,could you post a thread with more about your engine,like the carb setup and what not?thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 10:55 pm:

That looks kinda like a Hemco pan and trasmission to.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 11:28 pm:

Appears to be a Muncie transmission.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome R. Hoffman, Hays KS on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 12:44 am:

I looked at a TT that had a Hemco in it wile I was still in High School(31 years ago), at the time I was a junior. I went and looked at it and talked with the guy for a wile. I do remember he was asking a HUGE amount, $2500.00, and in 1977 dollars was a big deal. Because of this I stayed with the TT muncie I got out of a different truck. My thinking at the time and still is now the heavy duty nature of the TT version and the extra weight now centered will not detract from it's use.
I plan to use a header plate, make a set of headers and use a LF/OF carb with a hand made intake. I may still use the gen to run an oil pump, but with a bit different setup in mind. I have a new cast iron VW pump but now that I own my Fathers speedster, and have/had priming problems I like the idea of an external oil pump more and more. I still have the carb setup, it was only run on the test stand, so i really don't have experience what it would do on the road, but ran good during break in. My father ran the same manifold set up on my touring with a Harley Davidson carb when I got it from him in 92' and I should have tried a NH on it before going back to stock. At the time it was good for about 10 more mph's on the top end, just took too much tlc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 01:07 am:

Here is what a V W oil pump set-up looks like on the suction side of the system. The pickup and valving are in the center of the sump and on each side forward just under the hogs head. Yes the V W pump is mounted on the rear of the cam and driven by a tang and slot. You can't make people think you have a stock engine when you plumb it this way, but it works.

pump


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 06:57 am:

Jerry,

You are welcome to this old pump. E-mail me at sethharbuck@bellsouth.net with your address and I'll send it to you.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 08:02 am:

Guys, just a thought, is there any low voltage, low amperage electric oil pumps out there? Any movement has got to be better than splash lubrication. It would save modifications to cam gears, etc. Just a thought, I haven't done any research on the subject. Maybe I will while at work today!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Sumner on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 10:43 am:

Here is a pump I mounted to a front cover and driven by a pin thru the generator gear. I have used one like this on my Fronty for 25 years . It self primes very fast even after setting all winter. Lesoil pumpoli pump2fronty


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Bunner on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 11:58 am:

why not use an electric oil pump? You could drain it out of the pain via a fitting then pump it to a oil pipe at the front via the oil filler cap hole. The pipe could naturally come up through the hole and out the side of the timer cover... You would have plenty of pressure and you wouldn't have to modify to much in order to make it work and you can add an inline filter...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 12:34 pm:

A gear-driven pump robs power.

A generator to feed an electric pump robs even more power, due to loss of efficiency in energy conversion from mechanical to electrical and back to mechanical.

Gear-driven pump power consumption ir rpm dependent. . The more oil you need, the more it supplies. . Electric pump power consumption is constant, meaning it robs just as much power at idle as at high rpm.

Question: do splash paddles on a flywheel rob more power than a gear-driven pump?

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 12:52 pm:

RDR
Those big vanes (magnets) bolted to the flywheel and blowing all that air and oil inside the T engine consumes quite a bit of power.
The first time I tried to balance a T flywheel with the magnets installed I found out. We could not spin up using the belt friction drive the shop had and soon as you stopped powering it it slowed down very quickly. We were only trying for 1800 rpm. The solution we lit on was to put one layer of 1 1/2" wide masking tape around the perimeter and the problem was solved.
So I figure that if you take off the magnets and substitute a pump and make no other changes you will definitely pickup power. I have thought about putting rare earth magnets into the flywheel and moving the coil close to the flywheel as a way to get spark power. The problem is the cheap rare earth magnets have quite a low temperature limit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 02:19 pm:

I've never had magnets on my engines, just four 1x1 angle aly paddles.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Burg on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 03:08 pm:

Les Schubert wrote...Jerome
well I like it! Of course I like when people do creative things.

Les, Jerrys dad was full af ideas for the model T. this was just one of many.

He was a great guy.........les


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 06:17 pm:

Les Sumner
Nice looking oil pump drive. Do you have a make & model of the pump or know where to buy it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Sumner on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 07:36 pm:

The pump is a brown and sharp brand and is used to pump oil and fluids in machines. I don't know where to get one now. I found mine at a swap meet.Les Sumner


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 07:54 pm:

Les, Les Schelley is in the gear business so this is no problem foe him. Hope you drop by, It would be good to see you. Glen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Niedzielski on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 08:01 pm:

Hi Les, I have not been totally up to speed on the entire concept of the 5 main engine. I am surprised you are not going with the idea of reproducing the front plate distributor (Bosch style) with the factory casted provision for the gear pump on the front. You had won this puppy off eBay a year or so ago. Was there something wrong with it or the design?

To add another dimension to this thread, does anyone have any experience with running with the accessory "Strong Oiler" that was made back in the 20's? It was for the 2 valve door engines and the cover casting had a finger that fitted beneath one of the valve spring keepers. It used a ball check plunger idea. It would likely not be sufficient for a race engine but could have applications for the right engine. I have always toying around with the idea of running one on a semi-stock engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 08:25 pm:

As Ed mentions I have another of what I believe is a original accessory oil pump with a Bosch plate distributor (see attached photos). The draw back is that it is high up from the oil (8-9" at least) and a long way forward. You could easily have 24" of inlet tube if you suck from the flywheel area. Not terminal but not ideal either.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Niedzielski on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 08:51 pm:

A lovely part to behold. ....Why not go with a simple idea they used back then to solve the potential priming problem? I remember seeing pictures of racers that had a Polarine tank which was a long oil tank that was a few inches in diameter that sat just in front of the gas tank behind the seats. There was a simple push-pull pump, that fed the engine to keep the oil level topped up during gruelling racing.

In this scenario, the oil tank/pump setup would be used to prime the pump before/during start up of engine. A simple and era correct addition.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 09:29 pm:

Ed
Certainly a thought worth considering. Another issue is to come up with the solution to help the other guys that own these engines. The front plate unit is not cheap (OK nothing about this is cheap BUT). The new front plate is not listed by Langs anymore so may not even be available new. I am trying to solve the problems for 10 engines not just one. Tomorrow I am going to start machining up a bracket to hold the V8 pump. It really helps to have the engine machining drawings so I know where everything is located!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 09:45 pm:

Could the inlet oil pipe have a couple curls in it to hold oil once the pump stops?then the pump could pickup what is in the loops quicker than what is in the sump.
The old Briggs and Stratons like the Wmb that use copper fuel line going to a check valve in the gas tank use this idea to speed cranking.A little gas stays in that loop.Saveing pulling so much.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Graham on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 11:05 pm:

Les
Several years ago I was faced with the same problem of oil pump mounting on a special engine that I was building for myself.I never liked the rear mounted oil pump running off the back of the camshaft buried inside the engine. I decided to run a VW oil pump off the front of the camshaft where the timer or distributer are mounted. It required making a small aluminum casting that fit the front plate whare the timer slips in and also accepts the oil pump. A special nut with a slot was installed in place of the original nut on the front of the cam gear to drive the pump. The suction line from the oil sump had a swing check installed in the horizontal position below the oil level just after coming out of the pan. The oil pump must be mounted with the inlet lower then the outlet, this keeps oil in the pump after setting for days, weeks, or months. Priming is never a problem even after sitting all winter. In northern Michigan, winter is a long time. The car has been running for 13 years and has never had oil pumping or priming problems. To date,I have built 3 engines with the same oil pump setup. As far as the ignition system that I used,I will tell about that if any one is interested. This thread was about oil pumps and mounting. Tom Graham East Jordan Mich.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 12:12 am:

Tom
i would love to hear about your ignition system


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 01:25 am:

I see that several have mentioned about priming problems with a rear camshaft operated VW oil pump, indeed I thought my problems were lack of prime, but I found I was incorrect.
I used a spin on oil filter attached with a 1/2 inch pipe thread, which of course has a taper. After a couple of attempts I realised that the filter was tightening down on the thread rather than the oil seal. So once the pressure built up, the oil seal popped out. That is now fixed but during the testing I found that with some real effort I could hand crank the motor fast enough to get oil pumping out of the pump. So I doubt priming is a real problem. Cavitation is another matter....
The oil pressure relief is a simple tube with a small spring and a ball bearing, seems to work quite well and was simple to build.
The idea of mounting the VW pump at the front looks interesting but I prefer to keep everything inside the pan.
Take care using the BMC oil pump, as an ex-Englishman I have seen many, many failures of the early 850 Mini pump. They work great when new but are VERY suseptable to failure after just a little wear. The later model used in the 1275 Mini is much better.... I have attached a sketch from the Haynes manual which shows the differences. I prefer the VW pump...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Gilham on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 03:54 am:

I'm finding this real interesting. I have yet to ever build a T engine, but have always wanted to.In a quick search for a toyota 20R pump (crank mounted in front) I found this,http://www.casconpump.com/pdfs/CS-053.pdf


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Gilham on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 03:59 am:

I don't know what kind of room is available at the front of a T engine and don't have a engine at all right now but this is what I was trying to find. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/toyota-2.2L-oil-pump-20R-engine_W0QQitemZ23031654 7896QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20081229?IMSfp=TL081229116004r22318


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 06:30 am:

Tony,

Please attach the sketch if you don't mind. I have an early 850 Mini (built October '62) and though I rebuilt the engine 30 years ago and have low mileage and no problems, I would like to know what the differences are that affect the reliability.

Thanks in advance,

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 11:55 am:

Scott
That Gascon pump is pretty slick, built in relief and all. How much are they?
The design concept of the Toyota pump is used by most manufacturers today. I have one from a V6 Buick(same concept) that I was considering but the installation becomes tricky.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Houston, Broken Arrow, OK on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 07:22 pm:

I have used VW pump on rear of cam on my Fronty Speedster since 1975, thousands of miles. It does not lose it's prime. Steel fuel lines with double flare were used. Has modern screened oil pickup in bottom of Sump along with a full flow oil filter, also in the sump. The only thing you see outside is the line to the oil pressure guage on the dash. The sump is filled with the motor oil to normal oil level. I use a 5/8 felt oil wick on the rockers. The sump is removed to change oil filter, every 6k miles or so.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Hansen on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 10:32 pm:

Thought this pump with Model t generator front plate and short section of T generator housing for a pump mounting an interesting set up. I removed this from a 26 engine with, if memory is correct, Rajo head. Donít recall the head model, but I believe it had dual spark plugs. It was a chassis with Ruckstell, sold the head and kept everything else. It has been laying on back shelf for ten years or more.

The mains had outside oil lines, the inspection plate on bottom of pan had a sump attached to it. Donít really recall the plumbing for inlet, it had to come off the sump, possibly there was a connection between the transmission part of pan and sump.

It appears the pump mount adapter is soldered to the ID of the generator housing. The pump tag has following

Tractor Motive Corp.
GCTR 2377
John S Barnes Corp.

I would guess the acorn nut is a pressure relief


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 10:39 pm:

Fred
I too have used the VW pump several times with no problem. I totally agree with you on the steel lines with double flares. OK well sometimes I have used single flares because there was no way I could do the double flare due to dimension constraints. I always run my lines in the block on conventional T block conversions. On my 5 main project the lines will run to the caps but the oil will enter the bearing on the block side of the bearing.
I have always struggled with burying the filter in the engine but it certainly would fool most people!.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 11:38 pm:

I can reccomend the mini style oil pump... they're rippers. An A series BMC engine will turn 60 plus psi just off idle.

I think the one seth has is from an early engine. later ones had more lobes in the pump components. I have found from personal experience that the better version of this pump is one that uses a flat 1/4"(?) steel backing plate. It has much bigger ports and is more capable at lower speeds.

It might be possible to drill and tap the steel plate for fittings, or drill and poke the drive out through the steel plate so the ports are easier to access.

http://www.minisport.com/acatalog/Mini_Oil_Pumps.html

cheers

anthony


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 07:55 am:

Yes Anthony, the one I posted pics of is most likely the original from my Mini.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 10:11 am:

Ricks- Surf City...

"I bought an era cam lobe oil pump off tbay, but never bothered to install it."

Will you be using it? Interested in parting with it by chance? Obviously because I'm looking to put an oil pum setup on my T sprint car,...

This is a great thread guys, lots of good ideas and creativity. Great display of vintage pumps also fellas!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 10:13 am:

Fellas,..

Could it be feasable/possible to run an oil pump off of your fanbelt, or would there just be to much resistence on the belt, or wear, etc.??

Just curious,...something I've been meaning to ask.

Thanks in advance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Gilham on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 10:31 am:

Les, They don't really have a dealers list on the site.
http://www.casconpump.com/pumpproducts_industrial_mobile.html

Most likely...Big Trucks....Big Bucks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 11:44 am:

Jason
Re; fan belt;
If you are doing pump assisted splash, then sure it has been done many times. I have seen the Teel pump mentioned above used for this purpose with success.
If you are doing a full pressure system then I would have less confidence in this approach.
Cam lobe pump;
If you look at one and do a few calculations these are more of a gimmick than a serious pump. If you were going to do this then I think you would want to have the cam lobe pull the pump plnger back and have a spring push the oil out. That way at speed you won't get full stroke but you won't bend things.
I have one of these as well that was installed in a NRS Ford engine, really Mickey Mouse!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 12:23 pm:

For a plunger pump, I think you want a circular eccentric, and not a valve lifting lobe. That's how mechanical fuel pumps work: push out, then let an internal spring provide the fuel pressure on the return stroke.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Andulics on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 09:15 pm:

Jerry Hansen, the Rajo head you had was the BBR. This is an oil pump that I've been working on, uses the gears from a small block chevy pump.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 09:18 pm:

JOE!

DAMMIT! I WANT ONE!! HA!!!

Put me first on the list!... hey at least I can ask!
he, he....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Gilham on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 10:26 pm:

Joe, Forgive me I'm new at this and don't have a motor here to look at. If I'm looking at this correct, this is on the front of the timing cover and sharing a ride from the cam gear??
I'm really enjoying this info and am wishing I had a motor to mess with. I've been thinking about this for days but my motor building is down the road yet. I'm just getting started on the chassis.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( www.ModelTengine.com ) on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 10:31 pm:

No one's going to ask?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 10:54 pm:

Joe
Very nice. I assume that it provides a 1-1 for a side drive mag?
Is it iron or aluminum?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Andulics on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 10:55 pm:

Scott, yes the pump is driven by the camshaft. The Chevy pump uses a slot and tang arrangement which makes it easy to find a way to drive the pump.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Andulics on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 07:21 am:

Yes, it has a side drive as well. I ran out of gas after the front plate, oil pump and side drive and I never finshed the patterns for the oil pump.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( www.ModelTengine.com ) on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 08:43 am:

Joe, if your going to go to the extreme of casting up new parts, how about making one that runs a pump off the front (or top) of the generator gear? This way you can still use a T commutator or distributor. If you can make a bolt on that allows original ignition parts it would probably sell well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 08:54 am:

Jerome Hoffman,

I have to assume that you have lost interest in the BMC A-series pump since you've asked for this one yet never given me an address to send it to.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Andulics on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 10:37 am:

My intention was never to sell, the parts. The pattern making and casting was the easy part. There is a lot of machining that goes into the parts and I'm not sure I'd ever be able to charge enought to get my costs back. I did it for myself because I couldn't find the parts, or if i did find them I'd have to get a home equity loan to afford them.

I've started patterns that are similar to your description, and a few other variations on the stcok Ford front plate, but have no real "push" to rush through them.

What I could use is some ideas on a water pump that could be easily adapted to the side drive. Thanks, Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 10:52 am:

I wonder if a VW Beetle generator with rear shaft could be adpated to the T drive? That's a natural to drive a waterpump instead of the scirocco fan, and it would look a lot like other early cars.

I bought a Beetle alternator off tbay with the idea of belt drive and waterpump. Still have it somewhere.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( www.ModelTengine.com ) on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 12:00 pm:

Too bad you can't make a few once in a while, we need talented people like you to make things like that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 12:02 pm:

Joe
I have patterns for a through shaft water pump. I have cast and machined two of them for my '13 Russell (and a friends). I have seen pictures in Speed and Sport of era race engines that brought the water in through the core plug (frost) holes on the right hand side of the block (blank the original inlet). If you mounted the pump to run off your side drive then bringing the water in there not be too difficult. I also have other old cars that while they have the pump on the left side of the engine they bring the water around the front and distribute if into 3 or 4 spots along the left side bringing it in by the exhaust valves.
I would be pleased to swap a set of water pump castings for a front/side drive casting (un-machined in both cases).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 12:16 pm:

Tim
I completely understand Joe's point of view. The fun part is seeing if you can do it (The challenge). After that it is just work! Unfortunately T guys are notoriously cheap. I suppose if they had real money they would play with real cars (Joke here). But your in the business so you know what I mean. I have a single car garage FULL of casting patterns for the one and two offs I have made (mostly not T). I do it because I can not find the part I need or I and a couple friends all need the same part, so I make it, I have the talent and a little money which I believe is not any good to me after I am dead and the kids don't need it.
The thread has been really great. I have learned a lot and I want to keep learning. Now back to machining my V8 pump adapter prototype.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome R. Hoffman, Hays KS on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 02:32 pm:

Hi Seth, Been busy, and trouble with the home computer. I'll e-mail you tonight as this is the last five minutes ofr my lunch--got to get my T fix. Jerry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 03:18 pm:

Jerry,

I'll ship it tomorrow. You should have it by Tuesday.

BTW, here is how I'd use the A-series pump:

Since it will be running backwards (the A-series has chain for cam drive), the inlet and outlet ports are backwards and they aren't symmetric. So, I'd replace the front plate with a new plate that had mirror-image ports and plumb to the rear. If the rotor housing was notched, I think there would be plenty of room.

A sealing plate between the new plate and the block might be necessary.

Just my thoughts...

Have fun!

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 11:01 pm:

pictures of my V8 oil pump bracket. It isn't finished but so far so good. This is the '48 and earlier pump I will use the 49 and later pump which is about 3 1/2" shorter


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 11:05 pm:

Joe
here are pictures of the water pump. It is flange mounted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 11:09 pm:

Boy that dude raises some purist blood pressure, huh?

Nice goodies there Les. Very nice work.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 11:10 pm:

Here is the datsun B210 oil pump. Nice in that it has a built in relief valve and oil filter mount. Trouble is they are a orphan now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth Harbuck on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 11:13 pm:

Joe,

Didn't mean to leave you out - that SBC Chevy front drive is mighty nice as well. Nicer looking casting than what you are bolting it to!

I wish I could do all that.

Seth


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Andulics on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 11:20 pm:

Les, I still need to walk out to the barn and check but I'm game if you are. Thanks, Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 01:26 am:

Les and Joe...

Wonderful pieces of beautiful machinery!
I can really appreciate what both of you have done and are doing!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 11:34 am:

IIRC, the '49 pumps had larger gears (than the earlier ones). Then in 1950 they changed from spur gears to helical gears for more capacity and pressure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 01:28 pm:

Ken
I appreciate your comment. Fortunately Ford made the installation a universal retrofit. The Melling pump that I can buy today I am sure has the helical internal gears but will plug into any flathead V8 from '32 to '54 (in Canada) '53 in the USA. This is only one option that I am pursuing. It may not make it into a engine of maybe not into more than one engine. I just so like having the pump down close to the oil where it belongs!!


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