Half Fast Hybrid

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2008: Half Fast Hybrid
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 10:41 pm:

Some people promote a "Poor Man's Fronty" using a Chevy head on a T block.

OK, you take that nifty overhead head and get a special machined plate that mates it to a T block, joggle pushrods, etc., to get maybe 40 hp. . The adapter plate looks funny because the Chevy pistons are slightly smaller and closer together than the T pistons.

Then you worry about that bent hairpin crankshaft, or you load the T block up with more compromises to fit a modified Model A crankshaft. Then you hang on a disturbutor and maybe a waterpump. . What do you have?
-----

I had a good telcon today with Les VonNordheim, who told me there was a guy in San Diego who did just what I have wondered about: he installed a complete Chevy engine on a T pan (crankcase), mated to a T planetary.

You then have a really rugged crankshaft and rods, the correct geometry for rods, and the head and pushrods, factory disturbutor and waterpump, etc. . To get higher compression ratio for lots more hp, you merely install Ford 292 pistons. Done..

If you're not beholden to the T planetary, it would be even easier to use the Chevy 3-speed grinding gear tranny, and then would not need an aux tranny.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Jeffrey Cole on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 10:47 pm:

I just took both my T's for a spin this evening and that 20 hp in my little "pickup"caused me to have to put on a coat and turn my hat around backwards.Fast enough for me!
I bought a 28 chevy engine a few years back from a T'r.It was in his parents car when he was growing up.Several folkes had heard about this modification and had tryed to buy it for the head.He wanted the engine preserved as it was.It was in terriable shape in the cylinders and I would have to sleeve it to fix it.I dont have a complete chevy chassis,only the front half,So no real need to fix the engine yet.It is soaking to try and break it loose at some point.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 10:51 pm:

Thank you very much Ralph, but I prefer Ford for my T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lance Sorenson on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 12:10 am:

Last summer I toured on Eric Hylen's 4th of July tour. My brother drove over in his 28 Chevy to meet us when we made a gas stop near his home. While filling gas I noticed a few guys were looking at his car. When I asked my brother, he said they wanted to see the engine. We wondered why? We had no clue.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 01:23 am:

You don't need a Chevy part to make your T go except perhaps the valves. My flat head T crank splash motor puts out enough horsepower for me to turn a quarter mile at just of 71 miles an hour. Take a look at how it did on the dyno a few years ago when one of my sons took it in to see what it would do before we really hopped it up. Yes that is 47.8 horsepower at just under 3000 revolutions and he was afraid to run it any faster and so he shut it down.

chart


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 01:51 am:

Building a Che-T....or F-Chev
The rear of the chev. block has a large boss/threaded hole located in the same area where the 26/27 hogs head ears bolt to a T block. To bolt the t hogs head and chev. block requires a simple, fabricated (Home Made) adapter. One side, the adapter bolts to the chev. block and the hogs head bolts to the adapter.

The rear of the chev. block must be machined to mate with the model T hogs head. Also, the crank shaft rear flange must be modified to fit the T flywheel/transmisson shaft. New mounting holes must be drilled in the model T pan to correspond with the chev. bolt pattern. The pan nose needs to be modified slightly, depending on what pulley is used.

The chev. engine originally has an oil pump which pressures the mains and provides oil to dipper troughs.....very similar to the oiling system on a model A.

Ralph, I can hear the Hornets buzzing...Smile!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 02:33 am:

Will I get a commission, Les, if I promote this enough to convince somebody to buy one of your Chevy engines??

For calculating possible CR in the Chevy engine, we need to know the compression height of a Chevy piston and the compression height of a 292 piston. I have the 292 number somewhere, and I have a set of NOS Chevy pistons somewhere else..

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 04:15 am:

Ralph,

I have enough to build two....you and I are both in trouble..so lets go all the way! Fun Project...

Would need to make alum. valve covers with a special name...Che-T, FRAUD or Tzer any ideas?

I may have 2 sets of new .030" 292 pistons/rings. I can measure the height from center of wrist pin to top of piston for a 292. See what you can come up with.
Les


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trevor Davis on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 05:02 am:

You guys who mess around with modifications to the Model T are on a different planet to the rest of us. I just wonder why you wanted to own a Model T in the first place. I grew up as a youngster in the depression years and I am just so grateful to be able to afford to own an old car like my grandparents used to have. Our enjoyment comes simply from keeping the car in original condition, maintaining the old machinery in running order and driving it with all its limitations. I guess you wouldn't understand.
Trevor


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Mortensen on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 07:12 am:

Trevor, I think they understand but they aren't doing anything different than was tried by others "back when". The T was the platform for a lot of speed demons and their experiments.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 07:43 am:

Trevor, I can understand both sides. I hate to see people hot-rod really nice original cars, or even restore good original cars that have a nice patina. I have a brass T which is the way Henry made it and I just try to maintain it that way.

But I also understand the engineering challenge in taking a pile of rejected junk and making it into a car you can have fun with. I'm doing a tatty 28 Model A as a daily driver so that's getting a B engine & minor steering and suspension mods to make it safer and easier to use in traffic.

There's room for both approaches.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 12:17 pm:

Ricks,

I did exactly as you suggested but the old T just looks different somehow. Can't quite put my finger on it...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Mortensen on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 07:26 am:

Which leads me down another path and off the T topic. I wonder if anyone has ever dropped a Chevy 6 into a '28 Chev? Seems to me the '28 was designed around the 6 but they didn't have the 6 ready in time?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 10:09 am:

I think you ought to drop a Model T engine, transmission and rear axle in a '28 Chev. Then you would have something reliable!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 01:28 am:

Royce - Would you call it a "Chevrolord", or a "Fordolet"?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 02:17 am:

I have not heard any stories of problems with the Chevy engines, just the earlier cone clutches, the driveshafts and axles.

Chevy bodies apparently didn't hold up, either, so a higher compression Chevy engine in a Ford makes some sense - more sense to me than a Chevy head on a Ford block. As you know, a Chevy head was designed for a Chevy block with its smaller bore and closer cyl spacing, and the Rajo, Roof, and Fronty were designed for the Ford block.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 02:58 am:

Warren,
The 28 chev. engine that I have was still in the cut off front frame section. The 28 chev. front cross member was set up to accept a 4 or 6 cylinder engine.
I have a very original (Cosmetic Restoration late 50 early 60's) 13 T touring which we enjoy very much. However, I also enjoy playing with engines.
Our 13 still has the correct engine. I would not cut up an early engine.....but have enjoyed modifing a 27 T engine as a fun project.
This is nothing new! People have been modifing model T engines from their beginning. Some, trying to make the engines more reliable while others want to go faster.
I happen to like pulling up hills better. Our model T all-ready will go faster than I care to drive on the flat.

Royce,
We signed up for the Canyonlands III tour in Knab UT....plan on bringing our 13 touring....are you going?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 09:26 am:

Les,

I am (so far) planning on the spring tour in Texas this year in the Tyler area. Don't know about the Utah tour but it sounds like a good one. We will see.

My favorite piece of road in the USA is US 50 driving from Colorado to Reno Nevada.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 01:47 am:

Royce,

Several years ago, we went on the Estes Park tour in Colorado. What a great place for touring.
Had a wonderful time and our 13 touring made it over Trail Ridge and completed the tour with out problems. There were more long hills on that tour than any other that we have been on.
I was on the last Arizona Shoot out and met some very nice folks from Texas.
Would like to go on a tour there some time.

Also have some friends in Ark. that have invited us to go touring with them. They live in Dover Ark. We visited them last Oct......what a great place for old car touring.
Hope we have the opportunity of meeting each other. I plan on attending the Chickasha Swap meet this year.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Niedzielski on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 12:32 am:

The '28 Chev engine was more advanced due to the reasons given above, and of course such cars as the 490 Chev put tremendous pressure on Ford during the tail end of the Model T era. If one speaks to the sages of wisdom and experience, the Chev engines had a good reputation for economy and general performance and were easy to work on.

However, they had problems with high RPM's. Possibly this problem can be somewhat solved with the use of lightweight aluminum pistons. As well, the Chev crankshafts were made of softer metal than the Fords, though they do look beefer and stronger. I know that there is the odd fellow who likes to modify and install the Chev cranks, but I wonder how well they would hold up compared to an excellent stock T crank that has tremendous torsion ability?

I guess the question will always exist of how far can you go before a T speedster or bug or go-job or whatever you call it, is no longer a Model T? I would say you need to use a T frame, a block, front axle and rear axle housing and everything else is fair game. Even in the day of dirt track or board races of any kind the aspect of the T block was so important that there were jobber T blocks made , kind of like what Les Schubert is making now (the 5 main block).

I believe what attracts most of us to work on the Model T is the very fact that the T block is indeed simplistic compared to others, and that inspires us to fiddle/tweak/refine/torture this engine. Personally, I am learning about mechanics by working on my Model T's.

Engineering a T block that can withstand the constant demands of 2000 or 3000 plus constant RPM's to run in a reliable way for at least 2 summers in a row requires a good deal of work, research, patience and money; that is a challenge worth going after. (Otherwise, one could just take the easy route and work on Model A Fords, a better engine than the '28 Chev engine, but that would be too easy!)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 01:33 am:

When I was at home living with my Dad and Mom, Dad would most of the time get up first and cook breakfast. He was on a kick for a while and would make his specialty. That was fried bologna with eggs. Oh to wake up to the aroma of fried baloney!
Well sometime later on a trip to the Ozarks in a tourist trap I came upon the perfect souvenir to take home to Dear old Dad. I found a wooden plaque that had the words on it "I'm not a slow cook. I'm not a fast cook. I'm a half fast cook."
That little piece of cedar board hung on the wall above the stove for years.
Thanks for reminding me of that Ricks, I might have to get up in the morning and fry me up a batch of baloney.

Herb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 02:46 am:

I've been driving the Fronty with a Chevy crank and rods for over 10 years. . The rear flange broke off a few years ago, because the bronze pilot bushing had been left in, and polluted the weld many years before. . Just had it welded back on.

I don't think I baby it. . We cruised up to 65 on the way to Long Beach Model T Club meeting tonight. . I put the top up to keep dew off the seat during meeting, so drove home just a little slower.

Found 3 cracks in #4 journal of the Model A crank we ran a couple of years. . Guess I don't know how to tell if the Chevy crank is soft.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( www.ModelTengine.com ) on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 08:56 am:

Ed, Our local chapter has a rule that says you have to have a Model T to be a member. The Model T is then defined as a car that uses a Model T block. They did it to not exclude the speedster folks that want to run overhead valves or alternative crankshafts, etc. They had to draw the line somewhere and that's where it ended up.

My take on it is if your going to be in love with Chevy cranks, chevy blocks, overhead valves and slide transmissions - you might be happier with the Chevy clubs. I put this head on because it was something I wanted to do since I was a kid. Everyone told me that I'd break the driveshaft off, spin the tires every time I took off, and throw all four rods through the side of the engine by doing this. They told me I didn't want a sedan either, no one wants a sedan. After 20+ years I stopped listening to the "bad" advice, and I'm having fun with what I've created.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 10:45 am:

Tim, how do you deal with cases of guys who come into the forum because they're interested in Model T's and want to buy one some day, who are given the advice to "join the local Model T club"?

I was a member of the St. Louis chapter for at least ten years before I bought my T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim ( ModelTengine.com ) on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 01:38 pm:

I help them find a T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 02:39 pm:

Jean Knowles, Editor of the Orange County MTC "Flivver & Flapper News," has been President, etc., for many years, and I don't know if she's ever owned a T. . Her '27 Chevy Touring does quite well on tours, sometimes on the front end of a rope that's tied to a T. . The picture captions always say the T is pushing her Chevy with a stiff rope. She also has a '28 Chevy coupe.

We also had a member in the Long Beach club with a '23 Chevy, no T, and we have a member with an early Dodge, no T.

I don't believe there is an active club for stock early Chevies in SoCalif.

HCCA doesn't require old car ownership, and neither does the Orange Empire Regional Group, HCCA.

Guess you Plimouth people are pretty Puritan.

rdr
Plimouth Colony descendant of George Soule'.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 02:43 pm:

Seems to me that just having an interest in Model T's should be enough to allow anyone to be a member of a chapter. Can't believe that an elderly member who has sold his Model T due to health reasons or due to developing physical limitations would be "ousted" from the Chapter because he no longer owns a Model T, and if he is still allowed membership, how could the Chapter discriminate against a youngster that does not yet own a Model T?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don't care if you don't like it on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 03:56 pm:

Once again, pig pile on Tim. The by-laws for that chapter were set in 1967. No one commenting on them lives anywhere near Massachusetts, but your way is the right way and better than actual members of the club. It's discrimination to require someone actually have a car in order to join a car club?

Your editor, no T, never had one, never will, no desire to own one, only likes Chevys. Why is she in a Model T club?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 04:40 pm:

I think the real answer is that no matter who you are or where you live, if you have an interest in belonging to the local T club, you should be welcomed to do so. Doesn't matter who wrote the rules or when.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 04:51 pm:

Royce - You said it much better than I did!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 05:16 pm:

"Your editor, no T, never had one, never will, no desire to own one, only likes Chevys. Why is she in a Model T club?"

Boy, Pig Pile, you sure fantasized a lot of untruth into my statement about Jean.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 07:28 pm:

I was piling on Tim? On both this and the other forum, people who post that they are interested in acquiring a T are constantly being given the advice to join the local club. I think Tim's post was the first I've heard of a club that requires a T before you can join. Since I didn't think that Tim had written the bylaws of his chapter, I'm not sure how questioning that chapter's rule is "piling on Tim."

I guess we'll have to alter our standard advice. From now on, we'll say, "Join your local Model T club unless you're in Massachusetts."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony Bennett - Australia on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 05:12 am:

Fit a small block chev then!

t350

9 inch

you know the recipe boys;)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren Mortensen on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 10:04 am:

I'm not familiar with the requirements of the MTFCA but I know that the rule Tim mentioned wouldn't fly with the other club. Typically, chapter bylaws have to comply with certain requirements of the national organization which does not require ownership of a Model T, just an interest in it's history and preservation.

As far as other makes coming on tour with the local chapter, I've been told by many Model A owners and assume it's common for other non-T people that "You guys are just more fun to be with than the snobs we encounter at our club meetings."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By correction on Tuesday, January 13, 2009 - 08:42 am:

"Our local chapter has a rule that says you have to have a Model T to be a member"
Wrong.

From their club by-laws.....

ARTICLE III

- POLICY

"To be a member one must own and maintain a Model T Ford which is reasonably complete, either in running order or in the process of being restored. In the event that a member ceases to own a Model T, a grace period may be granted by the Board of Directors in order for the member to acquire another Model T."


On good authority - the terms "reasonably complete" OR "in the process of being restored" were included for the fellow who is interested, but doesn't have a car, only few rust T parts to start his restoration journey towards a finished car.

Technically, a person could be granted membership by owning a coil box with the intention of building a car around it.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mass on Tuesday, January 13, 2009 - 09:02 am:

Correction - you're ruining it for the huddled masses on here. Your ways are wrong and you should change what you do so it's more like what I do because my ways are the right way. Like the city guy that moves to the country so he can own a farm. He misses the noise and people so he invites all his friends to move in near him, builds big buildings and more roads so he's more comfortable. The best part is that the farmers don't get a say in it, if they don't like it? They can move.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, January 13, 2009 - 09:04 am:

Hmm, nothing about a Model T block.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Howard Heninger on Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 09:03 pm:

Ricks, I have two 1928 Chevrolet Motors. I am putting one in a 1926 Model T Fordor.

I would like to find an Oldsmobile 3-Port Head for the Chevrolet block. I am not beholden to the T planetary.

It's the roar of the chevy four!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 09:54 pm:

That should be a simple switch, Howard. . Please keep us up to date on the job. Does the Chevy have enclosed driveline like Ford, or what?

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Howard.Heninger on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 04:52 pm:

Yes, the 1928 did. The hardest thing is the dealing with the enclosed drive shaft.

Take a look through...

http://66.154.44.164/forum/showthread.php?s=ae271666f5847d2948f3070b42fad318&t=3 21363


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, January 17, 2009 - 04:57 pm:

The usual thinking is that a modified T block makes a "Speedster" but a different engine makes a "Street Rod". Different strokes for different folks!
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 01:56 am:

For me....I got a big kick out of watching some of my T buddies trying to figure out what this strange looking engine was in a very correct looking 12 T. Some commented..."The pan and hogs head is correct....must be an expermental engine that Ford was developing". In the end, my friend removed the engine because of the ribbing he took from fellow model T owners. The engine is now on display in a private collection in San Diego. As I remember, the chev engine was very smooth and performed better than the stock T engine. The bottom line.....lets have fun! If you have a 28 chev engine and have no better use for it....why not have fun? I believe there are many more 27/28 chev engines out there than cars to put them in. Chev guy's may not like the idea...however, you have not destroyed any thing that can not be re-turned to stock.
The chev chankshaft is much stronger than a stock T crank. I have pushed on one in a large press and know that for a fact....no question in my mind. The main journals are larger compaired to a model A crank. After modifing my chev crank, I had the journals hard chromed before final grinding.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dexter Doucet on Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 04:29 am:

I have two four cylinder chevy's a 28 fordor
and a 22 490 touring. I believe the chevy cranks
are cast iron. What are the T cranks made of?
Are they cast iron as well? Anyways, I'm a Chevy
guy who likes Model T's as well. My third antique
car is a makeshift T truck. Truthfully it has true
fire/ no magneto and is twelve volt. Not wholly T.
Some day though. Dex.
P.S. Planetary transmissions are a pleasure to
operate!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 12:19 pm:

Dexter,

The chev cranks machine like they are a good grade forged steel. They also weld very well. I do not know what alloy steel was used but the cranks are much stronger than T. When modifing a chev crank for a T, I like to bore the rear main and press in a model T transmission shaft. That way you have a finished flange. After weld prep...I weld the small end where it protudes out the inside web and also where the main journal and flange join. The model T transmisson shaft is very tough....anyone that has straightened one knows that is a fact! The front crank nose is easily modified by welding on some stock, a little more lath work and cutting a new key way. I have welded on a T flange....however, shrinkage resulting from getting good weld penetration/heat causes the flange to shrink. You then need to build (Weld) the flange O.D. re-machine and elongate the mounting holes to fit. You eliminate this hassel by using a T transmisson shaft. The down side of using the chev crank/rod combination is pistons. Egge no longer offers the pistons. The model A/T piston has the correct pin height but the pin size is too large for the chev rod. You can bush the egge piston or have specials made by Ross depending on how fat your pocket book is and your maching capabilities.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dexter Doucet on Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 03:31 pm:

Thanks Les,

I have an extra 28 Chevy crank that has a crack
in the #3 rod journal, right in the corner. Soon
I hope to have a picture taken of the crank while
it's being black lighted.(or something like that)
I have a friend who works for an oilfield company that does just that. If I succeed in getting a good
picture of the crack, I'll post it on the forum to
see what you all think. Could the crack be ground
out and built back up with weld? With regard to
bushing pistons, should they be bushed with aluminum?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Von Nordheim on Sunday, January 18, 2009 - 04:05 pm:

Dexter,

I made shouldered bushings out of 7075 T6 alum.
The shoulder (Thin) is located in side the piston. The bushings were chilled in dry ice and pistons heated to 300 deg. F. Allowed for .0002" press. You need to be set up and work fast as the bushing will heat up quick. Make sure you also have chev rods. Use the chev pins. This is using the Eggy A/T pistons.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Howard Heninger on Wednesday, January 21, 2009 - 02:48 pm:

The 1926 Fordor is a rolling chassis and body. The 28 Chevrolet is a rolling chassis and motor.


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