1920's Sprint Car Build,... a fresh thread.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2008: 1920's Sprint Car Build,... a fresh thread.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 04:28 pm:

Thought I'd start a new thread that was not inundated with off-topic nonsense, so as to try and keep things on an even keel and focused for anyone who chooses to be viewers.

Have been wrenching and welding a bit now and then on this little 20's era dirt track car, so as per the requests of those interested to see more as I progress, here is the latest.

Got the higher, pre-1926 front spring in and installed it. It certainly did make a world of difference. As stated earlier last month, I'm still headed towards this setup, but may change it up a bit as the rear end is setting itself up a bit differently than the ride height I have been shooting for. I'll probably even up each end (front and rear) to find the happy medium for the torque tube's placement. As always, nothing is set in stone yet, but I'm keeping my focus and original intent for the project, intact.

Also have fuddled around with the rear quarter ellipticals made from one T front spring. They worked out very nicely. Now to just tweak the brackets I'm in the process of constructing to hold them to the frame. I was also toying with the idea of using period parts to fabricate furthur bracketry via the idea of using what would have been at hand in the time period.... hence I lobbed off the heads from two front spring perches and getting visuals on some different ideas I have.

One is to use the perch heads, curve the bases to the arc of the axle tubes, weld into place and brace with 1/4-3/8 flat stock on either side of the perch heads. Though there's another idea that is much more 1920's looking as many parts were often bolted on rather than welded. Seeing as my profession is welding however, and would have been the same back in the 20s, I'm going with the realm of having a welding machine at my disposal, torch welding will be the finished means if anything is to be welded.

Also took a '25 Chrysler radiator shell and narrowed it, making it a cathedral-like window pane of sorts. Now to shorten it up a little also....(sorry those photos were night shots, not to good, my apologies!! YIKES!)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/IMGP0038.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/IMGP0045.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/IMGP0046.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/IMGP0042.jpg


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Andulics on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 06:28 pm:

Nice job on the grill shell.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By eric o'hara on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 06:46 pm:

Jason,
Every time I see a new bit of your progress it sparks me into a bit of inspiration to go and do just an hour...... which is always 2+ hours. Thanks for this and for your PM help.
Best wishes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 07:03 pm:

Jason
I am not sure that I am a big fan of welding those brackets to the bottom of the axle tubes. One concern is that I believe that it will cause the tubes to bend a little from the shrinkage that will come from the welding. Maybe weld the perches to a nice clamp then for sure you can get a really good weld with no risk of bending the tubes.
However I respect your welding ability.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 08:21 pm:

Fellas,...

Thanks for all of your kind words! Much appreciated!

Eric-
Keep me up to date on your progress! Make sure to send the stuff you were telling me about,...looking forward to seeing it!

Les-
Oh, that's so obvious, I totally forgot about those issues of bending due to the heating and cooling! Thanks for shooting that by me!

Yes, I was throwing around a very similar idea as the one you just puposed.
Though not sure if its the best or even very reliable, (one idea of several) I know Johhny Gerber used some discarded piston rods, cut and reworked, then clamped to the rear axle. He was one tough admirable racer, so if they held for him,...I'm wondering if they'd hold for me??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 10:42 pm:

Jason
Using some old conn rods of the right size would look pretty neat!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 11:24 pm:

Here's a shot of the Gerber #15 car at the Sprint Car Hall of Fame... a kind friend took this photo for me. **(Note the connecting rods doubled up on either side)**


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 11:26 pm:

Joe-
Yeah I'm probably gonna go with it,... message it a little here and there and then just shorten it up a bit.

Hey anyone know the radiator height of the Fronty rads. back in the day,..(aka 1920s,..the tall narrow ones.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lindsay Martin on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 03:35 am:

Jason,
302 Ford Windsor rods would go close to fitting the diff tube. i think they have a tunnel diameter of around 2.450 so wouldn't take much to fit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 10:17 am:

Lindsay

Thank you for the suggestion, much appreciated. I think though that I'd rather find out what rod from the era would/could be used and go with that. I like the idea of explaining that everything on the car that was used is from the era, or a competent/good reproduction part, if needed.
It really adds to the car for me. It's just a personal thing mind you,...I'd just feel weird and out of whack knowing and /or telling someone I used something from a modern car that is so visible....that's just me though. I'm nuts!! LOL!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 10:19 am:

Looks like it may have been from a big diesel engine?... or somekind of farm machinery? After all Gerber was from the midwest. I'll have to check with a local tractor repair shop down the road about if he knows of any conn. rods from that era that would have been that rear axle tube size??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 12:18 pm:

Jason
I wonder if they aren't from a flathead V8 Ford. Im thinking the later '38-'48 version with the bigger crank and the full floating rod bearings. I know they were one of the few where the studs were an integral part of the rod. Most others have the bolts as separate parts


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By eric o'hara on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 02:51 pm:

Jason and all,
Do you think that John Gerber might have drilled and pinned the rods or provided a location hole and peg? What a brilliant idea tho to use the rods. I think John Gerber went on to make racing con rods but was this a bit early I guess.
Jason I will send dwg soon.
I can really relate to your trying to do as they would have in the period, it takes a lot to get out of the modern ways of thinking. I guess that is the same for many disiplines from historic building to aircraft recreation or reverse engineering.
Having said that thanks to Lindsay for that info.It may be useful.
Best Wishes


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 04:16 pm:

I know Gerber stopped racing in the late 30s, early 40s, and retired the car, so I'm thinking not V8 Ford, as its makes sense that they would have been in place long before 1932, when the V8 came out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 04:47 pm:

Rods with large diameter, narrow journals would have been somewhat rare pre-1932. Early V-8's however, (Jackson, Cadillac, Chevrolet, etc.) may have used such a rod?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 05:05 pm:

"Rods with large diameter, narrow journals would have been somewhat rare pre-1932."

Yes, this is what I was running into,... its probably something right in front of me that I'm missing and just not thinking of??


"Early V-8's however, (Jackson, Cadillac, Chevrolet, etc.) may have used such a rod?"

Chevy had a V8 before the 1950s? Are you sure??

I know of Cadillac having the V8 in around the early 1940s, did they have them before that? I never heard of that?

Not very familiar with jackson so I'm at a total loss there??

What about some of the big trucks, like "White"?
The White Motor Company was around from 1900 - 1981. Not sure on the engine sizes though. Though I'm sure that they only prduced larger trucks right after the 1920s, I suppose they could be conn. rods from one of those?? I'd have to see about sizes.

There were also hit and miss engines,... and other farm machinery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Eastwood on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 05:38 pm:

Jason, There were quite a few V8's around in the teen's & twenty's Cad in '16, King in '15 or '16, Chevy in '16 or '17, Lincoln all through the 20's.Just to name a few. The Chevy may not have made it to production, but I know they made some.
Pete


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 06:04 pm:

Pete-

VERY good bit of information! Thank you so much!

Yes the only thing that looked larger that I could find was a photo of a packard rod!
http://i22.ebayimg.com/03/i/001/28/9d/d740_1.JPG

Boy, i'll have to look into the Caddy, King, early chevy and Lincolns!
Hmmm,....where the heck do i start!! HA!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Paddison on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 06:04 pm:

It may be a bigger engine yet. Usually the Rods on the early engines were rather stout with wide bearings. Looks to me, based on the thickness of the rods that there where allot of 'em crammed in whatever block they came out of, so it could be an 8, 12 or even a 16....just depends what was available at the time in the wrecking yards. Packard ran V-12s starting in the 'Teens through the late '30s as did Cadillac and Lincoln. Cadillac ran the V-16 from '29 to '40 but changed it to a flathead design in '36 or '38 i think.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By , on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 06:13 pm:

Look at connecting rods from valve gear on steam engine. Usually a large diameter, narrow casting, with female threads that received a threaded connection to valves.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Wednesday, January 07, 2009 - 06:39 pm:

Well, if anyone can turn up four of them for me from the 20s or earlier I'd be VERY grateful to say the least!

If this gets to be to much though, I'll more than likely fabricate something similar out of a stout-walled tubing??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason on Thursday, January 08, 2009 - 09:32 pm:

Just did a wee bit to the sprint car this afternoon when I got home. Decided to play with some of the rear spring geometry to try and get a better setup and figure out the placements for the shackles, etc.

I'll be fabbing up some brackets to bolt on, but tacked the perch head in place to see where everything rested for now to get a visual on things.
I'm 95% sure I have it where it will work the best for the way in which the springs will ride, flex and so forth. I also flipped the brackets upside down so the springs were mounted lower to get the right clearance for the torque tube so it didn't hit my butt when it rode up while riding around!! By the time the brackets ar fabbed up, it will only raise the rear about 1-2" and that will be fine, it will put me where I want it to ride anyway.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/IMGP0067.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/IMGP0055.jpg
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h29/coaltowncowboy/IMGP0052.jpg


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