Dayton Wire Wheel Hub Nut Threads

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2008: Dayton Wire Wheel Hub Nut Threads
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robb Wolff on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 12:06 pm:

The hub nut on my Dayton wheels uses a modified buttress thread. The way is see it the 90 degree risers make this thread an excellent choice to lock the nut tight to the hub. Curiously the threads seem to be cut backward to the way I think they should work. The diagram below shows the thread orientation on my hub.

It would seem to me that there are two primary forces at work: The tendency of the wheel to “fall off” or pull outward away from the car, which leads me to believe that the threads are backwards. The other is the clamping force of the nut as it tightens into the tapered wheel center which causes the thread pairings to slide down the ramp toward the inside. Which would argue that the threads have the proper orientation.

One of the machinists out there must have a simple explanation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 02:17 pm:

Are there right and left hand threads for the different sides of the car?

Herb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robb Wolff on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 02:28 pm:

Hi Herb,
Yes, right hand on the left side and left hand on the right side.
Robb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 03:20 pm:

Hi Robb: I don't know what type Dayton wheels you have but I was forunate to purchase a full set of 5 NOS Dayton 30 x 3 1/2 wheels/hubs/hubcaps a couple of year ago. The thread on these are 2 1/4 x 12 standard thread. They are not anything like your drawing. Have your hub thread been streached? I have also reproduced hubs and caps using this thread. I have found that not all Dayton threads are the same size. All close but not clones. I think it depended on how the machine operator felt about work that day!
Are your hubs like the one in this picture?Dayton Front hubs


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 03:25 pm:

Hi Robb: I don't know what type Dayton wheels you have but I was forunate to purchase a full set of 5 NOS Dayton 30 x 3 1/2 wheels/hubs/hubcaps a couple of year ago. The thread on these are 2 1/4 x 12 standard thread. They are not anything like your drawing. Have your hub thread been streached? I have also reproduced hubs and caps using this thread. I have found that not all Dayton threads are the same size. All close but not clones. I think it depended on how the machine operator felt about work that day!
Are your hubs like the one in this picture?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robb Wolff on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 03:36 pm:

Jack,
Thanks for posting the photo.

Perhaps the threads are stretched.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 06:09 pm:

Robb: Check that hub very carefully for cracks between the threads. That is the weakness in Daytons hubs. There is not much material between the bore for inner bearing and threads. Over tighting and wild driving of Model T's (grin) would crack the threaded area.
I see the yellow dot on your hub, that is a factory paint marking. They used red and yellow. Marking right hand andleft hand thread.
BTW Dayton Wheel is still in business, but no one there knows much about their early wheel production. JP


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Friday, January 09, 2009 - 10:06 pm:

I don't want to hyjack this thread but I have a set of dental drive wheels which i believe are Daytons, but no hubs. Would anyone be able to supply a picture of what they look like and any critical dimension differences between them and what Robb is making.
Thx
Les


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By johnd on Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 12:36 pm:

Les I have dental drive Daytons,19in w/snap rings, dental drive Phelps 30 x 3 1/2, but I'm unable to send photo's over this computer as I'm on a very slow land line computer even tho the computer is up to date and new! let me know your mailing address and I can send some via US Mail danuser88@socket.net


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robb Wolff on Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 12:45 pm:

Jack,
No cracks that I can see but the hub does have four slits which I presume are to facilitate the clamping effect of the taper.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 08:34 pm:

Here are some pictures of my Dayton ? dental drive wheels


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam on Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 08:44 pm:

Robb: I have not seen the hub caps with slits in them before. All of mine have no slits. I don't know why the sllits are there. JP


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Scherzer on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 12:42 am:

They sawed the slits to allow the hub nut threads to squeeze in on the hub threads as they got tightened in on the taper. This was a done as fit to badly worn threads and not done by Dayton. Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 12:57 am:

Those Daytons look very similar to my #4 Houks, which are 30x3.5 clincher, but for a larger car like Overland, etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 11:43 am:

Bob: Thanks for the update on the slits in the Dayton hubs. Makes good sense especially if you consider that a lot of these early wires were used in racing contests, and were subject to a lot of abuse.

Ricks: Your right the Houks look a lot like the Dayton wheels. The Dayton I have have 48 spokes and I see that you Houks have 60 spokes. I can't tell if there are other differences. I have attached a NOS Dayton wheel photo for comparison.NOS Dayton wheel


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By johnd on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 12:04 pm:

Jack am I seeing an upset area around the pin holes to the outward side , or is it flush, I have a set of wheels w/flush faces around the 6 pin holes?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 02:26 pm:

Johnd: You are corrct. There is an upset area around each hole. This helps to spread out the wear area as these are pin drive wheels. Here is a closer view of the wheel center.Dayton wheel center


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 07:12 pm:

I purchased a set of 30 x 3-1/2 Daytons many years ago. Some of the wheel hubs had upset hole and other not. I never did figure out if these were all Daytons or ? The threads on the hubs looked odd but I thought it was because they were worn out. Is someone reproducing the Dayton nameplate on the hubcap? Has anyone had Dayton rebuild their wheels for them? I hear they do good work and are reasonable. The rear hubs are also worn out in the taper where they fit on the axle. Anyone experienced with a repair for that short of all new hubs (or good originals)?
Verne Shirk
Wichita, KS


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 07:40 pm:

Vern: I have seen a few reproductions of the Name plate for the Daytons, however I do not know who made them. I don't think it was a production run.
I had Al McRoberts rebuild my wheels. He did a great job. I understand Dayton Wheel Co. has one person who does their rebuilds and he is quite knowledgeabe. I have not had them do any work for me.
How are you rear hubs "worn out"? If it is the keyway you could broach a new keyway in a different location or possibly enlarge it and make a special split size key. I have not tried this but it should be possible. 5/16 recut on one side to 1/4 inch???
I had to make some new hubs because I could not find decent originals and I thought the challange would be a good one. JPRear Dayton hubs


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 12:32 am:

Verne
Further to what Jack has said about broaching new keyways I agree with that. I have also rebored hubs to clean up the bore (it usually wears more at each end of the bore) and then made a oversize axle so the hub now fits in the correct location and nice and tight. The axle is the same diameter and length as normal but the taper is just a bit larger.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 08:44 pm:

Jack & Les,
Thanks for the ideas! I will measure and see what the keyway and bore looks like. My hubs, and wheels, are pretty experienced! The new castings sure look neat.
Verne Shirk
Wichita, KS


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan McEachern on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 01:44 am:

Vern and Jack- send me an e-mail and I will forward you a source for the emblems.
Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By johnd on Wednesday, January 14, 2009 - 10:45 am:

Dan I need 2 sets also can you let me know also danuser88@socket.net


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